The Lost Deep Puddle Dynamics Interview

I did not do this interview; I can take no credit for it except that I (sort of) commissioned it and got The Source to post it online back in 1999.  And I think I minimally copy-edited it, because I was doing that for everything that got posted there in those days; but as I recall, it didn't need much at all.  I never posted this on my blog ("necro'd" it) because, again, it's not my writing.  You can tell; all that expository text really isn't my style.  But this vintage Deep Puddle Dynamics interview is no longer online, and hasn't been for decades.  I'm pretty sure if I don't share it, it will be forever lost to the ages, so I'm posting it for you all to enjoy now in 2023 as a tiny bit of Hip-Hop history.  Enjoy!

"Hello?"
"Yeah is Del - I mean Jel - there?"
"Yeah, Del's here."
"No, I mean Jel.
"Yeah, Del. Catch a Bad One. I'll go get him."
"Word."
"Which one?"
"What?"
"Which word?"
"Um - chicken."
"Cool. I'll go get him."

I'll probably never know which member of Deep Puddle Dynamics (besides Jel) answered the phone that afternoon. The smart money is on Slug, but whoever it was, I doubt he even remembers the interaction. Regardless, it pretty much reflects the dichotomy of the entire crew: For a bunch of guys who're trying to take hip-hop to the next, mind-expanding level, the members of Deep Puddle Dynamics are a bunch of goofballs.

Deep Puddle Dynamics didn't come together like most groups do. All of the MCs (Slug, Dose, Sole and Alias) had distinct musical careers before they assembled as a group and have continued to work on their solo projects all along. And, even though Deep Puddle Dynamics is set to drop later this year, all four are working on a whole slew of solo albums and collaborations with and as other groups. Everyone involved is about putting out product and keeping their fans equipped with dope music.

The MCs of Deep Puddle are a unique cast of characters, to say the least. Slug, straight out of Minnesota and the Rhymesayers crew, is practically a superhero in the Midwest underground, albeit a rather tall and gangly one. Many fans and MCs in Minnesota, Chicago and surrounding areas are literally awestruck in his presence. He has the charisma and ability (pun intended; his DJ's name is Abilities) to truly control the mic and the crowd. As for Dose, underground MC Eyedea has described him as the James Joyce of hip-hop. Some audiences don't know how to react when he hits the stage. Now living in Cincinnati by way Philadelphia and a bunch of other places, the 1200 Hobos MC wraps words and thought around the average listener's gray matter and squeezes hard. Sole, the short and kinda stocky former frontman for The Live Poets, is a physical counterpoint to Slug. Originally from Maine, now living in Oakland, he's self-described excessive talker and charismatic mic controller. Alias, one of Sole's old partners in crime from Maine, is much quieter and more reserved than the other three. Maybe it's his marriage. This calm exterior hides a propensity to lyrically snap hard on a track. Production for the group is usually split between Jel, Mayonnaise, Alias, Abilities, and ANT (of Atmosphere).

Most of their interviews are nightmares for the conventional journalist. You ask them a serious question, and they fuck with you. You ask them a not so serious question, and they still fuck with you. Jel, one of their producers, told me about an interview they had with some German magazine while in California.

"She kept on asking us these real deep questions, like 'What's your definition of hip-hop?' and 'What are trying to do with your music?' We just sat on the on the couch and had a blast. She didn't know what to say after a while."

That's what I had to look forward to that afternoon. This June, all of the components of Deep Puddle were together in Chicago for a show - a truly rare occasion - and on this Saturday they d gathered in one place: Jel's crib. So I got to do an interview with all of these components out on the lawn in front of Jel's apartment.

The members of Deep Puddle have a penchant for spinning works of complete fiction during their interviews. The problem for the interviewer is that they're so damn good at it, it's hard to tell the difference between the fiction and the reality. They're great at building off each other while creating a story, and even better at telling you with a complete straight face that it's all true. Of course, when you're going over your notes, you realize that it was all a joke, but it sounds feasible at the time. I mean, how likely is at that Alias and Mayonnaise can't drive through Michigan anymore because they held up a pumpkin patch with two pale-skinned Goth women?

Okay, so maybe I didn't fall for that one, but they got me with another, the details of which I won't divulge (something about Sole witnessing Bushwick Bill getting beat-down in Texas). But, hey, I didn't take offense. It was all in good fun.

All of Deep Puddle agreed afterwards, however, that this was the most serious interview they had ever done. The reason being they were, in their own words, "humbled" by the previous night's concert. But more on that later.

The members of Deep Puddle were united by pure musical appreciation, of other artists and each other. Although Sole and Alias, who d grown up together in Maine, had already recorded albums as The Live Poets, all they knew of Slug and Dose was their music. Then, they all came together at an Aceyalone concert.

"We all loved each-other's music and wanted to do a project," Sole said, "And we said,  Fuck it, let's all just come to Minneapolis.  We all just scrapped everything we'd done to do something different, [and] in doing so, we - for me - redefined hip-hop, what I want to do. It was totally life-changing."

It all finally came together a little over a year ago, in a nearly week long, extended recording session at Slug's house. A bunch of Minnesota sunsets, one funeral and countless cigarettes and blunts later, Deep Puddle Dynamics was finished, and the crew was satisfied.

"We vibed off of it. We just sparked the whole thing," Slug says. "And now, it's like everything that I get involved with has progressed way past what I used to be when I released Overcast! [his last album with Atmosphere]."

That week long session affected all of Deep Puddle emotionally.

"I still listen to the album and look at the pictures, and every time I do, I just get a warm feeling, like, this is such a great thing to happen," Sole says.

Alias agrees, "I didn't know what to expect but, like, it was a warm feeling to know all of us, not knowing each other, could get together and just rush an album basically in a matter of three days [of recording]."

"That weekend was like, none of us knew each other," Jel adds. "We might have met at a certain point, but after that weekend it was like " he paused as Slug snapped his fingers. "Yeah, it was like a family."

Sole continues, impassioned, "After I met Slug and Dose and Jel, I felt closer to them than anyone else in the world, plus Mayonnaise and Alias. I felt these were like my best friends. We're all drawing from each other and pushing each other [as artists] and nobody's satisfied. We just keep pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing. And I don't think it's ever gonna stop. I was humbled by the whole thing."

It was emotional on other levels for Slug as well. That week he d severed ties with a close friend and lost a grandfather. During the drive to the funeral, with his mother, his son and his son's mother, he sat and wrote a verse. This verse became his part of "June 26th, 1998," a track Deep Puddle considers a culmination of the entire week.

"I think this group we have is really good for showing and proving," Dose concludes, "I think that's what we did. Since we did Deep Puddle, a lot more innovative stuff between the four of us, and all of our friends, has been done. But it was Deep Puddle that really gave us a perspective."

The previous night's show left Deep Puddle feeling deeply conflicted. Slug didn't even want to talk about it at first. Everyone else grumbled about how frustrated and annoyed they were on how the show went down. But what left them so "humbled" by the experience was that, in many ways, it was a disaster waiting to happen. After it was all said and done, the audience left happy.

The concert itself would be any crew's nightmare. It was disorganized, to say the least. Not too long before the first act went on, there was a serious chance that the show would be cancelled, because the promoters said not enough people had shown up. Mayonnaise said he'd already packed his records and was ready to go, when the opening act went on.

The venue itself didn't help either. They performed on a stairwell in the lobby of a large concert hall. The really high ceiling made the acoustics sound terrible. "It sounded like we were performing in St. Patrick's Cathedral," Alias quips.

And like every troubled show, they had to contend with the soundman. But they all agreed that he was basically a nice guy, just out of his element.

"He dressed like a wedding DJ," Dose remarks, as everyone murmured in agreement. "He had it on him. He smelled like a wedding DJ."

"You could tell by the cordless mics," Slug agrees. He and Dose then proceeded to discuss whether or not the mics smelled like cake or Macy's.

The cordless mics were another source of trouble. Apparently someone forgot to change their batteries before the show, so they buzzed really loud during the performances.

"Let that be a lesson to you," Slug says. "As much as rappers wish they had cordlesses so they could, I don't know, stage dive - or whatever the fuck it is that they wanna do - corded mics are a lot more dependable."

Furthermore, they had to perform without monitors. As an attempt to remedy this, they faced the DJ speakers at the top stairwell outwards, but even that didn't work.

"Actually, it was kinda funny, 'cause all we could hear coming through our monitors was our vocals, which was really weird," Slug says. "So at least we could hear what we were saying, but we already knew what we were saying, so "

And, on top of all that, the DAT machine stopped working midway through the show, forcing the crew to perform sans music. Phenomenally, this didn't set Deep Puddle back at all. In fact, it helped give the show its really unique character.

"At that point we were like, 'We can't rock beats any more. Let's just do it acappella,'" Sole explains, "And Dose loves doing acappellas anyway."

So, for reasons that Dose couldn't fully explain, halfway through his set of the show, he instructed everyone in the audience to sit down on the steps while he read his poetry for almost 10 minutes--not something you see everyday.

"I was just doing what's in me, and that's what s cool about it: it wasn't contrived, it was natural," Dose beams. "And in my opinion, the type of shows I want to walk away from - it's that type of stuff. Because naturally, I'm a nervous wreck, so I have to put effort into being relaxed and happy, and things like that helped." But the audience loved it.

"So, like, it went from like a hip-hop show gone bad to almost a slam, and that's something these kids have never seen before," Sole says. He then concludes, "I didn't have a good time performing until we started doing the acappella shit."

The entire audience had a great time. Deep Puddle credits the audience's reaction for transforming the evening from a disaster to a life-affirming experience. Fans that Deep Puddle didn't even know they had showed up and gave they crazy love.

"Afterwards, it was like, 'You guys are fucking freaks! You are fucking crazy! You guys moved me!'" Sole exclaims. "And we had all the conversations afterwards with kids who knew our stuff, had heard our stuff. It s just a nice feeling to know that you're not doing it for nothing. Forever we've done it for nobody, just each other." Since it was the first time that Deep Puddle had performed for its fans, they were especially troubled that the conditions at the venue were so atrocious.

"See, it would have been different had we played unknown, opening for some known group, and the sound was that bad; we would've looked at it differently," Slug explains. "But since everybody was so cool to us and so nice to us, that the sound thing sucked  But we still walked away from it feeling good about the audience."

"Last night I think I came into my own, performing," Dose says. "And only because I had confidence that was genuine. With all these guys behind me, I could truly be myself. That's never been the case before. It was like I was myself on stage for the first time. And it was because I had these three guys with me. It brought so much to me."

But not everyone in attendance appreciated Deep Puddle's show. One wannabe MC in particular took it upon himself to challenge the crew to a battle as the show wound to a close. He wanted to battle Dose; big mistake. In all honestly, it was over before it started, and actually pretty embarrassing. Dose quickly showed his lyrical superiority, and the challenger was unable to mount even a basic comeback. Soon the crowd was chanting for the guy to get the hell off the stage.

That's almost a metaphor for what we're doing," Sole reflects. "We want these people to listen to our records. And if you take someone like that up on stage, and they're doing their DMX impersonations, and you got Dose doing Dose, it's just funny."

Dose himself didn't take the whole thing too personally, and even though he made the guy look like a schmuck, he says he didn't try to totally destroy him. He admits, "I went in there and I didn't mean to be mean or angry with that kid; I just had a blast and let him completely reflect himself in me. He was just being a fool, so I gave him what he wanted for dinner, and then it was mellow. It was just a mellow battle."

Slug agrees, and explains how the entire encounter really reflects what the group is trying to accomplish musically. "That kid, when he came up, wanted to hate on Dose in general 'cause he couldn't understand Dose. And then, afterwards, I was talking to kid, and he was like, 'Yo, I'm from out East, and out East we do it a little different. But I gotta say, you guys got your own sound, your own thing, and I think it's really dope.' We could present what we re doing. Granted, we're coming from four different things as it is. And if we can push it all together and present it and have cats accept it like that, to me that's what it's all about. Quit writing out of your head and start writing with your heart."

After the interview is over, a small brown rabbit comes out of the brush and hops leisurely across the lawn. Dose points and exclaims, "Look! A rabbit."

"Let's get it," Slug replies.

"You wanna?" Dose says, and then looks at Slug for half a beat. They both then spontaneously break out in a sprint across the lawn towards the fleeing rabbit.

They chase it down the alley along the house, onto the nearby street, towards a large brown house. As they turn the corner into the yard, Jel says, "Yeah, they're having fun now, but wait 'till they run into the dog that lives in that house."

On cue, the dog bellows three or four times, and Slug and Dose run back in the opposite direction, to the rest of us congregated on Jel's lawn. As they approach, out of breath, Slug says, "You know what's the worst thing about hip-hop? Chasing rabbits through the streets."

Dose adds, "I think we just changed the course of nature. That dog probably killed that rabbit. We hit the lawn and the dog went directly for it."

Deep Puddle then heads back into Jel's apartment trading jokes and insults all the while.

Early Atoms Family Appearances Week, Day 5: Painting Puddles

 (Early Atoms Family Appearances Week concludes with what I think is the earliest Atoms Family appearance of all, with the Deep Puddle Dynamics crew.  Youtube version is here.)

Ah, the Halcyon Days Of Anticon

Man, remember the great days of Anticon Records? When they were hip-hop and ingenious and releasing great records and CDs as fast as you could collect them? It seemed like you never had to worry about them running out of material, and even if some of their hand-made, limited CDRs were sub-par, you could be confident it would still be full of compelling moments and great samples. But man, I just had to check anticon.com right now to make sure they were still in existence. I don't even know who's on the label anymore - just a bunch of folk singers and Alias making techno beats I guess. But all you guys who spent the early 2000s hating on them missed a Hell of little thunderstorm in Hip-Hop, at a time when the rest of the genre was going through a slow drought.

What about the time they all came together to do a track for DJ Krush's album called "Song for John Walker?" That was his 2002 album, The Message At the Depth; but you can just do what I did and get this sweet little 12" single of it. There are a couple other non-rap album tracks on the 12", too, but who cares? I sure don't. I only listen to "Song for John Walker."

In case you've forgotten, or just aren't a big news follower in the first place, John Walker Lindh is the white kid from California who got shot and captured while fighting against the United States during our invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. What was he doing there? Well, some kids join the school marching band and some kids lean towards something a little edgier, like the taliban. He shot some Red Cross workers while he was over there, plead guilty when he was brought back, and President Bush (the first one) got in trouble for calling him "some misguided Marin County hot-tubber."

The song surely shares inspiration with the piece Black Like Me that The Pedestrian had published in the East Bay Express a little while after the song was released. That article uncovers the surprising and under-reported fact that John Walker was, prior to leaving the country, a huge hip-hop fan who wrote battle raps on newsgroups and pretended to be a black man named Mr. Mujahid, calling out rappers who didn't live up to his ideals of blackness, i.e. calling Dr. Dre a "sellout house nigga living honkey dory," and "a disgrace selling out to the talcum. He'll be left dead and naked in the outcome; word to brother Malcolm." Yeah, you won't learn about all that in many other sources; you should totally go read the whole article.

Ironically, the song focuses less on Walker as a hip-hop figure, though; and more as a political icon. Like all of their best work, it's both directly sardonic and perplexing abstract at the same time. At one point, Dose One is chiding, "he wanted Hammer pants. He joined the tali-hey-ban. He sought an absolute truth, the alpha cliché; But he got the omega and fucked," at another you'll be struggling to decipher what he means as he repeatedly sings, "again we use the magnets poorly; again we use the magnets poorly." While Why? comes in, getting at least close to rap (longtime Why? listeners will know what I mean) to represent the non-voting, slacker generation:

"Well, I heard the two parties split platforms at the turn of the century;
But. I. Know. I'm. A. Mer. I. Can. By the coins I carry.
And that's fuckin' scary.
Bla-bla-bla-bla-blah blah blah.
And even the worn-wigged hard news anchors are un-affected;
And every psychic and small-time prophet is aloof.
We've been injected to the point of immunity;
It takes an F load of S to stimulate the desensitized taste buds of the sugar expecting community,
'Till we can barely detect... the weather man's insincerity."

Passage and Sole team up, reminiscent of their classic duet, "Isn't It Sad How Sad We Are?" ("Become a smart happy healthy pet rock if you can eat like us; you'll make great soup and hot new imports for domesticated devils. Don't worry, in thirty years we'll all be Johns and Sarahs"), while Alias provides a more omniscient perspective a la his great "Divine Inspiration." The Pedestrian only really chimes in for the song's opening lines, but I'm sure he was deeply involved with the writing of the whole thing, which has often been his role. The whole gang really pulls together, often with quite divergent styles, into a cohesive whole, thanks in no small part to DJ Krush. At the time, I know Krush's production for the Anticon collective received a lukewarm welcome by fans; but I actually think he does an excellent job capturing the dark, bitter joke; and subtly shifts the music to fit the different segments of the song, rapped or sung in styles you'd otherwise think could never be parts of the same song.

Krush remixed this song on an album called Stepping Stones years later, but it really doesn't retain the energy or effect of the original at all. It's kinda cool once or twice as a variant - he adds some slick scratching during one of the breakdowns. But the newer, earnest instrumentation takes things too seriously, losing the feeling that these are courtroom jesters singing a coded message of our extinction. Stick with the original, which is conveniently available on 12" already. The idea that Anticon has been moving on without Sole for years feels like some kind of a morbid joke. But that's the great thing about records, they last even as the times change. We can plop 'em on the turntable and go back whenever we want.

Battlefields

So, the vinyl pre-order packages of Sole and the Skyrider Band's Plastique album (as mentioned in my recent interview with Sole) are landing today, and with them the limited (to 500 copies) vinyl EP, Battlefields.

Battlefields is a 6-song EP on Fake Four Inc. (not Anticon); the title track of which is taken off the Plastique full-length. It then includes three new, unreleased songs and two exclusive remixes.

Surprisingly, the stand-out cut is the "Battlefields" remix. And I say surprising, because it's by someone named Tobacco of Black Moth Super Rainbow, a name which just screams sloppy, emo, made-on-a-laptop suckage. But damn if he doesn't just kill it. Especially considering "Battlefields" wasn't exactly one of my favorite tracks on the LP in the first place... though with its slow, mellow-ish vibe and sleepy hook sung by Marcus Archer (of 13 & God), it works better here as an alternate mood piece, sort of like a reprise to the Tobacco version. This remix replaces the original industrial collage with a funky guitar loop, a groovy bassline, and soft, thumping drums. An ill keyboard solo kicks in during the breakdown, too. The other version may've come first, but this really feels like the definitive version "Battlefields" was meant to be, and this cut alone not only justifies the EP's existence, but makes it more of a must-have than Plastique.

I prefer the other EP remix here - B.Fleischmann's remix of "Black" - to the album version, too; but it's not the stand-out highlight that Tobacco's "Battlefields" is. I think mainly I was just glad to have the cymbal-smashing, garage-band-jamming feel of the album version (enhanced by the fact that Sole is using that distorted, low quality microphone sound on this song, a la The Beastie Boys' "So Watch' Cha Want") replaced by... anything. And so this mix has more of a relaxed feel, with a more traditional drum pattern and lots of slow organ-like keyboards. It's also easier to hear Sole on this mix, where before you had to really concentrate to make out his words through all of the noise. Fleischmann's made Plastique's skip-over track into a very listenable experience.

Of the original songs, "Cut Off Moon" is both my favorite and, again, the least grunge band-y. The cover says this song features Telephone Jim Jesus (of The Restiform Bodies), but there's nobody on this track vocally besides Sole, so I guess it's him providing a lot of the instrumentation, accounting for the difference in sound. Again, it's got a more organized, polished feel to it, with a deep but slow and simple drumline and a lot of science fiction-like, warbling synths, which are appropriate given Sole's lyrics. It's superficially a first person science fiction narrative from a guy sitting on the moon lamenting humanity's future condition; but of course it's essentially a commentary on our own current one:

"Millions fought over the Great Lakes,
And poisoned its water with shrapnel waste
And cooked limbs.
Needless to say,
That was a real tough summer for some.
But few care about those forgotten nations.
History began
When we left and filled the stars like ants. In space,
The only enemies we found were each other."

The other two songs, "This Bad Reputation" and "Good Bacteria" kinda go together... they use the same basic sample for their instrumentation, which again is along the lines of melodic, science fiction soundtrack keyboards. Lyrically, well... Sole told me in our interview that he never was abstract like some of the other Anticon members, but maybe he'd like to take a crack at explaining the lyrics to "Good Bacteria" for us? "This Bad Reputation," a more straight forward song about Sole's struggles with artistic identity, takes the same basic music several steps further, by having the band increasingly rock out over the track as the song progresses. But it's still grounded by the underlying melody, which again seperates the feel of EP from the LP.

Plastique is more about discordant guitars, rock & roll and bashing cymbals - seriously, did I mention all the cymbals? - whereas Battlefields is smoother and more focused, with a consistent sonic theme. So, yeah, the LP's cool - it feels more like a natural follow-up to the original Sole & The Skyrider Band album - but the EP is the real gem that I'll still be spinning six months or six years from now. It's definitely worth going out of your way to find someplace still selling the Battlefields bundle as opposed to just quickly picking up Plastique on its own.

Now, remember my post in July about the free mp3 ticket that came with BusDriver's latest album? Well, I'm happy to report that Sole's album(s) came with one, too. It has a link to the Battlefields EP download (which also includes a handy .pdf file with all the lyrics) and a code to download the entire Plastique album. What's more, the card includes another password for a bonus "beats" album, which includes all of the Plastique instrumentals. People who ordered the pre-order package also got a signed poster and a sticker for each album.

Now that's how you handle an album release in 2009.

Sole Instant-Messenger Interview!

Aw yeah! It's the return of the IM interview! And who better to share it with than Mr. Anticon himself, Sole? It's only taken us eleven or so years, but the Werner/Sole interview has finally happened. Lingering questions from the ancient days of 45 Below Records are cleared up all the way up to his upcoming album(s) with The Skyrider Band. Are you ready? If not, feel free to step away from the computer, pace around the room a few times, and then come back. 'Cause this is historical. 8)

Sole: hello my old friend
Sole: lets do this!
Werner: ok, well, let's start with the really old school stuff... you've hinted in the past about a song called "cops ain't shit to me" with a group called l.o.c.
Werner: from, like, '91
Sole: yessir
Werner: tell me about that... was that on their album? i assume a tape release?
Sole: LOC, was recorded with me and a guy named b-bop. b-bop was kind of a shady/hustler character who worked at a local radio station. he used my address as the physical address for the radio station so all the promos were sent ot my house, because he lived out of town. it was a scam, but i got so many promos and pre-releases out of it. b-bop taught me the first rule of the game, its all bullshit. he took me under his wing cuz he liked my demo i made "even if you prayed like hammer you couldnt touch mine."
Sole: b-bop was very political, he would write these anti white rodney king kinda songs and he would even write my verses. we were trying to be like public enemy. LOC stood for lyrics of consciousness. it was never released, he sent it to his label contacts and nothing happened with it. we had about 5 songs and then i dunno what happened to him, he fell off the map... so from there i became MC tim holland
Werner: ah ok... 'splains why i could never find it. lol how about another song from that same period? time to wreck shop with partners in rhyme?
Sole: hahah
Sole: you're fucking crazy
Sole: that song was dope.
Sole: "i live and let die // i never get high // im the king of rap and my style is divine // my hat is my crown // my mic is my scepter // since rap is my profession then i think i'll be a professor// professor, putting rappers under pressure // giving rappers stress and throwing rappers.... i dont remember the rest"
Sole: giving rappers stress and then im throwing em on a stretcher
Sole: that was when i rapped like lord finesse
Werner: lol nice... did that one ever come out? who were the partners in rhyme?
Sole: it was me and this dude dj kaos
Sole: later i found out all his raps were stolen from percee p
Werner: lol
Sole: he made me tapes of lord finesse shit, and then cut out the percee p verses
Sole: one day when i bought the original album i called him out on it and we never did music again
Sole: i may be getting the timeline confused, but hey, old age will do that to you
Werner: did you guys have a tape out of that song, or any others?
Sole: i mean
Sole: back then you didnt have tapes out
Sole: we werent DIY dubbing and selling shit on the block
Sole: first tape i made was put out in 94
Sole: back then i was shopping my stuff from like 92-94
Sole: trying to get a record deal
Sole: thats what you did back then, the idea of just putting shit out like that wasn't really considered... or possible... i was 15, its not like i had investors
Werner: did you get many responses? i know eventually you'd get to that thing with jd...
Sole: i was a local hero. that was enough for me. i had followers. people that would beat people up for me. thats how i developed such a humble persona.
Sole: i ended up meeting certain people, like jameson grillo from tommy boy who worked radio promotions who later in life would give me good advice.
Werner: was that from doing shows?
Sole: but, no not really... a dj gave my shit to dj premier, a track from partners in rhyme "david duke get the dick" dj premier said "sounds like vanilla ice learning how to rap" that hurt.
Sole: i didnt really do a lot of shows back then, these contacts were made through the college radio scene. before the internet college radio was how hip-hop was promoted, especially the non yo! mtv raps stuff
Sole: i kept good relations with all the college djs in maine and they wanted me to succeed, so they helped me out. jason butler, dj from hell, and b-bop . plus i had fans so people supported me. not a ton of fans, but a lot for a little kid. i was a very good rapper back then, very intense, and people had never heard a white kid rap like that.
Werner: k, let me ask you about your first 12"... it's produced by randy nkonoki... that's the same RN from 88hiphop, yeah?
Sole: yes
Sole: indeed
Sole: when i was shopping a demo to tommy boy, where i met jameson grillo....
Sole: randy nkonki was sitting in the lobby... he was like "who the fuck are these guys"
Sole: so we started talking. he was real cool.
Werner: did he produce as in doing the beats, or more just in the traditional sense? because i haven't heard of him producing anything else?
Sole: he was working with trouble neck brothers and some other artists at the time... genesis... i believe even mr complex, im not sure....
Werner: and is he who put you in touch for "3 guys at a bar?"
Sole: no, he made the beat. i dunno, it was a pilgrimage for me and jd.
Sole: he said he'd produce a track for me, and since i thought he was hooked up it was a big deal to go to NY and record.
Sole: so when we got there, jd was exhausted from driving....
Sole: he passed out at the studio....
Sole: and i recorded a song called "i got soul it be running through my veins"
Sole: at that time i had left my old graffitti crew / gang and started writing "sole." i made a song about it, and then after that song i eventually changed my name to sole
Sole: 3 guys in a bar was also a fluke
Sole: back then my favorite record was j live's braggin writes
Sole: i had been wanting to do music with j live so i got in touch with rawshack
Sole: george, the guy who ran rawshack, i think was amused by me as well,, so he'd explain the game to me, he was someone i used to call all the time
Sole: i was trying to sign with him.
Sole: anyway, me and j live never panned out, when mr complex dropped his record it, that and saafir, totally fucked up my approach to rapping , like "i dont have to rhyme"
Sole: i sampled mr complex on a song i did with cryptic one of atoms family who i met on prodigy
Sole: i sent mr complex the CD and he was so excited to hear himself sampled he agreed to do a song with me
Werner: lol nice
Sole: so he hooked it up with d-stroy and we did this song together
Werner: so, at that time you were running 45 below pretty seriously... you had other acts
Sole: yes
Werner: how did you link up with, like, six-too?
Sole: i mean, i cant say it was really serious. it was more of a crew, 45 below was an old school crew/label run from back 90 by moodswing 9
Sole: that was the name we chose for our label
Sole: and it was me and himc
Sole: him
Sole: moodswing 9 was involved in tape trading
Sole: i was a sixtoo tape, dusty, just on some shelf and it looks cool to me.
Sole: the cover was a handprinted thing, it was totally DIY but looked really cool.
Werner: was that psyche intangible? or one of the previous tapes?
Sole: i took it home and listened to it and it blew me away, for the first time in my life i found a musician that was really close to where i wanted to go aesthetically
Sole: i believe it was progress. it had the white trash song on it
Sole: so i got psyched, hit him up, and he was living in the nova scotia, which is just a hop over the atlantic
Werner: i guess it couldn't have been PI, 'cause you were on that one actually lol
Sole: he came down, and we became friends
Sole: we clicked
Sole: thats when we recorded that song "Cave people"
Sole: so its around the same time.
Werner: and that's around when 45 became anticon... if 45 was more moodswing's, was the change in name partially about you taking it over more?
Sole: ehh... naa.... anticon was me moodswing and pedestrian
Sole: anticon had more meaning to it and it symbolized a move away from hip-hop towards more weirder, experimental shit. we felt that it was time to push hiphop in a new direction.
Werner: but at some point... i remember in 98, i was always talking to you (as opposed to moodswing), re: 45 below
Sole: right, thats because i've always been very aggressive and motivated. there came a time where i had most of the contacts and vision i guess. but i've always tried to keep shit touchy-feely
Sole: i was really business minded back then.
Sole: i saw myself as an artsy master p // suge knight character
Werner: and what happened with mr. skurge/ups? did they step away from the label, or did you decide not to put them out?
Sole: uhh
Sole: basically they made that gay bashing song on the EP and we all kind of agreed that we were not cool with that shit. we had to be really conscious of what we were about and what we weren't. back then we had really strict lyrical, ethical guidelines.
Werner: i know they had an ep that was gonna drop on 45 below... and then of course when 45 became anticon, skurge was on the comps...
Sole: for instance, if you couldn't read it as a poem, it couldnt be a record.
Sole: oh yeah.
Sole: funny
Sole: but yeah, maybe skurge was offended by that, then he fell off the map and started working at a car dealership. those guys were cool though.
Sole: and they were amazing. they made such great beats and rapped really well.
Sole: sometimes people just fall off the map. its hard to say why. or its hard to understand how you've driven certain people away, or whatever.
Sole: no one knows what truly motivates people
Werner: yeah, i know they got back into it and started recording pretty hard years later
Sole: yeah. i dunno. they got weird with me a few times, so i didn't really wanna fuck with em anymore.
Werner: infinito put out, like, 50 different cd-r albums
Sole: yeah totally. i liked infinito. those guys were great.
Werner: ok, so speaking of guys who may've been offended about their record not dropping on anticon... lol
Werner: what happened with josh martinez's project?
Sole: they're working on a new anticon record with anathallo
Sole: josh martinez, honestly, after going on tour with him, he was all about fucking girls, his music was about fucking girls and beer and all this shit, and we all decided that he wasnt motivated by what the anticon credo was, so we decided not to put his music out. im really good friends with him now, and he's doing really great for himself. we get along great, and there is no hard feelings. we were about poetry at the time and he was about having fun, we were not about having fun. we were dead serious about this art.
Werner: yeah, let's get into that a little...
Werner: you guys have been sorta on the forefront of hip-hop songs with obscure meanings... i mean, you've had artists like de la, umc's who may've had crazy metaphors... but once you figured out the one "secret meaning" (a la "potholes in my lawn" were rhyme bites), it was pretty straight forward
Sole: uh huh
Werner: but you guys were into (sometimes) songs that seemed to have completely more abstract content
Sole: well i think thats more individuals
Sole: i've never been very abstract
Sole: dose is abstract
Sole: to me, as long as it was inventive & conveying something new and interesting we weren't specific about HOW you were "advancing hip-hop" heh.
Sole: i say "advancing hip-hop" wih a sarcastic tone...
Sole: but hey, hip-hop is catching up!
Werner: well, that's something i was gonna touch on, too... you're probably the most consistently sarcastic mc in your music, too
Sole: in life too
Sole: but i dont believe in sarcasm, i think people say what they think
Sole: just somtimes i say it in a bizarre way.
Werner: was that a conscious decision, to make that part of your MCing "voice?" or it jjust comes through?
Werner: well, it's not a criticism... i think those are often my favorite moments in your stuff when the sarcasm really comes through
Sole: i dont do anything consciously, thats why my evolution has been slow and natural. i never wake up in the morning and think "im gonna change my persona, the last one didn't work"
Werner: what about when you're part of a collaborative project? i.e. dpd or skyrider band? do you try to write a certain style at those points, or it's all just whatever you'rre feelling?
Sole: i dont think most people even pick up on the sarcasm, its pretty thick and understated.
Sole: what i'm feeling.
Werner: actually, let's back up a bit... i know moodswing moved on, but what's the full story there?
Sole: well
Sole: i dont know....
Sole: it was weird.
Werner: idk... i was almost going to say you've gotten less sarcastic before this interview... but listening to the skyrider stuff it's still in there 8-)
Werner: i know he did a 7" or two with bully...
Sole: i think he just got overwhelmed. me him and pedestrian had this little apartment, and me and pedestrian turned it into the anticon flophouse
Sole: one day moodwing moved out and i never heard from him again
Sole: i think he just thought i was crazy and didnt wanna work under the extreme pressure we operated under
Werner: ok, so let me ask you about vinyl... there's story after story about vinyl sales going up while cds die... has it come to a point where you can see it in anticon sales at all?
Sole: Not really.
Sole: I think thats more theoretical
Sole: like, david mathews band might be selling more vinyl
Sole: but i dont think odd nosdam is
Sole: im not sure though, i could ask him
Werner: yeah, i know it's bigger in rock & country...
Sole: well, toby kieth deserves it, he's done a lot for america.
Werner: i also wanted to ask about sampling... it seems anticon uses fewer now than in the early days, yeah?
Sole: yeah
Sole: depends, im sure odd nosdam has consistently used the same amount of samples
Sole: in my own beats its mostly samples
Werner: is clearance issues a lot of that, or largely just an artistic decision?
Werner: is it? i thought a lot of your stuff sounded more "created," but maybe that's just the aesthetic
Sole: both i think, but really, no one cares about sample clearance anymore, i think its more like... "its really easy to find a great loop, chop it, filter the bassline out, and put a drum beat under it... but its a lot more challenging and fun to try to make something from scratch." personally i prefer to use both, but im not a producer so i dont fuck with dogma when it comes to making beats. if i like a beat i'll rap on it. if i like music i'll steal it.
Werner: well, you've put out an instrumental album, etc...
has anyone really come after anticon samples, or are you still getting by under the radar?
Sole: no one has ever come after us. i try to sample people who i dont think should come after me. that may be naive, but i feel morally if bjork stepped to me about sampling i'd probably call her a hypocrite. i've never sampled bjork though.
Werner: haha right...
ok, here's something i wonder about... i know anticon's got some infamous unreleased projects (i.e. stuffed animals), but you also tend to put out like al ot of tour cds, etc... 20 years from now, global music group acquires anticon... how much/ what kind of stuff would they find in "the vaults?"
Sole: i dunno, stuffed animals never came out because it wasnt that amazing... other projects that started and were deaded is stuff thats lost on adat. they might find a lot of mediocre shit, but all the best stuff has come out.
Sole: my thing, is if we don't decide to release something, people can bootleg it as mp3s all they want.
Sole: but im not trying to eat off music im not standing behind
Werner: is there any older stuff that might still come out now or is it pretty much, if it hasn't been issued by now it never will?
Sole: i'd say there isnt much old stuff that hasnt been released that will come out.
Sole: but who knows, i dont know what everyone has sitting on their computers that they've never let anyone hear.
Werner: but none of the stuff people know about (stuffed animals, circus for prez, makeshift writers workshop)?
Sole: circus for president was really good. i wish that had come out. i still hope it will, but there just doesn't seem to be enough willpower for it to see the light of day.
Sole: which quite honestly i've never understood, but i didn't record it.
Sole: it was between nosdam & circus
Werner: well, it seems like circus has sort of dropped out of the music scene, i guess
Sole: there is a very fine line between genius and insanity. not to say anyone is a genius or anything, but you know the saying, "when you stare into the abyss it stares into you." i believe this, some highly creative people could easily get locked up if they talked to the wrong psychiatrist. thats why i've never talked to any "mental health" professionals.
Sole: circus spent some time in jail
Werner: oh ok... i know about a bit of that, but didnt know it got that far. i dont want to get to into his personal ish...
Sole: i was more talking about myself
Sole: haha
Sole: i was just speaking generally, sometimes we go through difficult times, and music suffers.
Werner: well, let's talk about sole & skyrider
how did you first link up? were you looking for a band, or they approached you?
Sole: i had just gotten into america. they were good friends with bleubird. i made a bunch of music for bird in spain, but it was a mess, he brought it to them to record his vocals and they finished the music. i was impressed with what they did. bud was living on a ranch in the everglades(or some swamp, i dont know it was beautiful) and i really liked his vibe, he was cool, we hung out and got along. i liked him cuz he was the earthiest hip-hop artist i'd come across. it reminded me of the nature kid at my core that had been forgotten in my city life. i had an opportunity to do a mini tour in florida with them, i did it, we recorded a track, played a song with em, it was really great. they were about ot move to canada, and i asked em to stop by my house in flagstaff to work on music for a month, they ended up staying. the rest is history
Werner: so is it "sole and skyrider" now for the long haul? do plan to keep doing albums and tours together indefinitely?
Sole: yeah, i mean the evolution of our band has been rocky. we were trying ot live off it all at first and it was really stressful. after some really rough tours we kinda just decided to take a step back, get jobs, and just start from scratch, and do it for fun. i think that honesty comes across in the new albums. but the evolution of skyriders production has really blown me away. the new beats they've been giving me are absolutely amazing, and will blow people away. most importantly, they're really fun guys to hang out with and work with, they've been very good friends to me, which is most important. i cant work with people i dont trust or want to break bread with.
Sole: thats not to say i wont do little things here or there, but my focus will remain sole and skyrider. but its also healthy for us not to put too much pressure on it that its not fun anymore, if this shit aint fun i'd rather go be a stock broker or a bank robber.
Sole: although in this day and age a stock broker is a bank robber.
Werner: lol true
Werner: so real quick, let's break down the members of skyrider and what they do/play?
Sole: bud berning: primary producer. he plays keyboards drums and guitars.

john wagner: he works with bud on all the production and finalizing of music. he is the drummer. he is also the member of the band that helps me with the business stuff, web promotions, bookings, strategy, and he manages our street team.

william ryan fritch: he is the melodic backbone, he plays everything, guitar, keyboard, drums, violin, cello, stand up bass, whatever. good thing about him, is he can solo on any instrument, not just competently stay in tune.

our process usually works like... bud, ryan, john or i start a beat, i write to and rap on it and send it back to bud and john they remix it send it to ryan he adds instrumentation and sends it back to everyone for final approval. at that point my vocals might not sound good so i may re=record.
Werner: so when you guys start a beat... is that like samples and drum machines? and then the band/john replays it, or some of it stays...?
Sole: we try to do it differently everytime.
Sole: if there is a sample we keep it usually.
Werner: i wanted to ask you about a couple of appearances you've done, too... you have a new one on an album with time, who i really don't know anything about except you're on their new album
Sole: what do you mean
Werner: it's a song called "trouble?" i dont know... seen it on ughh
Sole: ahhh
Sole: thats my homey time.
Sole: he's from denver.
Sole: he's become a good friend of mine.
Sole: sometimes when i think someone shows a lot of promise i do music with them.
Sole: if i have time and im in the right space.
Sole: him and extra kool are actually on my new mixtape nuclear winter, we did a denver version of "put on"
Werner: what's the story with that (mixtape)? i've seen you mention it a bit on the forums...
Sole: URB wanted me to do a podcast and i didnt wanna do some lame uninteresting podcast, and i was kinda bored so i thought it'd be fun to re-do a few gangster rap songs and turn em into anarcho-marxist anthems. it turned into an album. the only music i've been into in the last 5 years is silver mount zion and gangster rap, so it only makes sense that i try to make that shit too. there is a ganster influence in all the SSRB stuff.
Werner: is there anything specifically you can point out (gangsta influence on ssrb material)?
Sole: but after a serious album, its important for me to just do some shit for fun, with no pressure, it always creates something interesting.
Sole: battlefields was originally written to the beat "shoot me down" by lil wayne
Sole: longshots wass straight, TRAE beat in the beginning.
Sole: pissin in the wind is gangsta as fuck
Sole: even mr insurgent, which is a folk song, has gangster 808s under it.
Sole: its subtle. we dont use it like a gimmick or to be ironic, we just allow ourselves to be influenced by that form of music.
Sole: at the same time we're really influenced by post rock and folk and shit, so thats why our music confuses people
Werner: yeah, it's definitely less "straight hip-hop" then other sole stuff... i remember having conversations in the 90's and people would try to argue that sole wasn't hip-hop, which back then struck me as way off, now maybe you're actually moving that way a bit lol
Sole: yeah but now im swinging back that way to my rap roots. rap inspires me now. so thats good. maybe not in the way some people would want, but what i like is what i like.
Sole: and what im indifferent to is what im indifferent to
Werner: does the fact that you're now with skyrider (and out in az) kind of preclude the more classic "sole album," where you'd have a track or two produced by each of the anticon producers?
Sole: well first of all, skyrider is in LA, and im in denver. i've left the desert. im still working on music with nosdam and jel, i love those guys, we havent worked much in the last few years but i expect to work with them a lot more in the future.
Werner: oh ok... thought you were still in az
what's it like in denver?
Sole: denver is the most european city in america.
Sole: in my opinion
Sole: denver is heaven, i've been trying to move here for 4 years, but it took a while to convince my girl.
Sole: when we were in AZ there was a dispute over where we lived, no one wanted to really move to denver, and they're younger and single and wanted to be in LA.
Werner: nice... i don't even know much about denver. did you kind of "discover" it from doing shows there?
Sole: yeah, it was close to flagstaff, 8 hours, so i would play there more often living in arizona. i developed a real love for the mountains living in flagstaff, but culturally that place is a toilet, so i wanted to live in a city that was clean, beautiful and cheap, but that i could still drive 20 minutes and be in the mountains.
Sole: my dogs were raised on a river in arizona, so they swam every day in the summer. here in denver, the cherry creek runs 2 blocks from my house, its a bike highway that cuts through the city, and i bring my dogs there to swim in the summer. not many american cities have rivers that clean.
Werner: nice... yeah, definitely not the ones i've been to lol
Sole: not to mention, i really wanna ski this winter if i can afford it.
Sole: i miss skiing.
Sole: i used to do it as a kid but as an adult/artist i've been so broke i can hardly afford to pay rent, let alone do fun recreational shit. x
Werner: yeah, no doubt
oh, i forgot i had another guest appearance i wanted to ask you about... the kool keith/ dr. octagon song with sage... how did that happen? did he come to you guys?
Sole: no i never talked to him. his manager in florida, fuck i forget his name but he's a cool motherfucker... anyway, he had divinci remixing a kool kieth track while we were in teh car, and i hit up divinci and said "let me geton that" he asked the manager, and then me and sage recorded it. it was really fun. most people pay for a kool kieth verse, we got paid FOR it. that was really an honor. i would have paid to do the song. well, no i wouldnt have, but if i had money i would.
Werner: well, i think i'm near wrapping up w my questions... but i did want to ask you one more "biggish" one... maybe it's more of just an online thing, but you seem to be a pretty devisive figure in hip-hop... anticon as a whole is, but you even more than almost anyone else affiliated with it
Sole: to my detriment
Sole: benefit
Sole: anyway whats your question?
Werner: well, why do you think that is, for one?
Sole: because, my words and my balls is all i have.
Werner: yeah, i mean... i'd sort of expect heads to embrace you more than someone like dose, since he's more "weird" and you've been more traditionally hip-hop. but it doesn't seem to work out that way
Sole: i dont play around. i believe that art is war. i spent many years of my life living in the writings of "guy debord" and artists like brecht, adorno, emma goldman... i believe in what these people say.... tha the role of art is to challenge the status quo... to speak true to power... to shine light on subjects... to be honest.... i've never been afraid to start a war with a journalist who gets too personal in a review. i've never tried to hide my beliefs. i've never worried much about whether or not some hipsterblog was gonna like me more if i made a love song.
Sole: in fact, i dont see value in art that doesn't challenge the status quo.
Sole: otherwise, you're bringing water to a well.
Sole: bring water to sudan!
Werner: but it doesn't seem like you're challenging the sort of things heads wouldn't want challenged or wouldn’t side with you on...
Sole: yeah, i mean, some people go about their shit in a more strategic way, "do a song with this person, climb the ladder, etc." i've never done that with my music. making music is a very personal thing to me, and i keep it close to my chest. i dont wanna invest time and energy into someone i dont know, regardless of what they can do for me.
Sole: yeah, but its not trendy
Sole: doing coke and smoking cigarrettes and ironic 80s/90s kickback shit, thats what everyone is on
Sole: dance, forget about the world.
Sole: people listen to music to be entertained.
Sole: i dont listen to music. i listen to democracy now.
Werner: yeah... but there's acts like dead prez, immortal technique... or even just the more raw stuff like blaq poet that get embraced
Sole: well, they're not white. or if they are white, they are thuggish and look hispanic or something. i think race plays a huge role in this. i respect all the acts you mention and anyone who is talking about this shit, but the way i approach it is more subtle, its more of an undertone then the acts you mention... im not calling for revolution on my tracks, and my message isn't so easy to digest as the acts you talk about. i cram a lot of syllables over a mini orchestra. some people dont like that. hipsters want coke rap or their soft indy rock trendy dance crap, they dont want to cross the streams. i've never understood it personally, but i cant control it.
Sole: i want to make music that is easier to digest that maintains integrity. i think this new record is a step towards that.
Sole: i always think "This is gonna be huge"
Werner: does that have anything to do with the title, "plastique?"
Sole: and then... it comes out... and im like... wtf... xlr8tr passed on the feature AGAIN? how much do i have to pay these people?
Sole: plastique, is about blowing shit up and about the world being false.
Sole: plus it sounds french, so that makes me sound more cultured.
Sole: which is good cuz i jock french philosophy.
Werner: lol true... like l'trimm ;-)
Sole: also a lot of it has to do with being a "rapper" people havent seen me as a rapper.
Sole: i want to remind them that i am indeed a "rapper"
Werner: yeah... i mean, unlike dose, why, or even alias... you've definitely stayed true to being a straight-up rapper
Sole: oh well.
Werner: so what does anticon have coming up? it looks like a pretty nice immediate future with your lp/ep (plus mixtape), crownsdown.... why? just dropped...
Sole: i honestly have no idea whats coming out after why?
Werner: (and seriously, when the hell is pedestrian coming with another release?)
Werner: that's terrible... can you be fired from anticon? lol
Sole: i can fire myself.
Sole: i dont run the label, the daily business of the office hasn't been my responsibility since selling live water.
Sole: since i started focusing on art.
Werner: oh really? i didn't realized you'd stepped so far away from that
Sole: yeah.
Sole: when the collective was formalized baillie parker began running the label and all the artists got equal shares in the business.
Sole: like a true collective.
Werner: does that mean anticon could be like "we won't release this sole album" or "we're gonna drop this release that sole is for whatever reason totally against?"
Sole: absolutely.
Sole: but im not gonna say which bands i've voted against.
Sole: or acts
Sole: or records
Werner: oh ok... i didn't realize it had changed over so completely... i know baille had come in, but i guess i thought of him as just a business manager and one more partner...
well, we do know that you're lp and ep are about to drop... pre-orders end in like 2 days, right?
Sole: i guess so. 2 days left!
Werner: and is it still too early to say about the mixtape yet, or do you have specific plans/dates?
Sole: i imagine it'll be up for download next week... a preview version of it called "nuclear autumn" which will feature some SSRB tracks from our albums and a l ot of the songs for the mixtape. i imagine i'll have the mixtape on tour.
Werner: and the soleone store at some point hopefully?
Sole: yessir. i'll be announcing a preorder for this after the fake four shit drops, i just dont wanna confuse people.
Werner: cool... well, i should get this up before the plastique preorder ends, so people can jump on it if they're quick!
Sole: heheh thank you my friend.
Sole: and thank you for being so supportive over the years.
Sole: its been a long journey!

Ok, so you heard the man... only 2 days left! If you're interested in the pre-order (only place to get the Battlefields EP), it's right here at Fake Four. And for more on Sole, of course, check out his own site at soleone.org. Or, if you're more of a myspace kinda guy, that's right here.