Be What You Be - Pow Wow Interview (Soulsonic part 1)

So Cheryl the Pearl, who of course I just recently spoke to, put me in touch with Pow Wow of The Mighty Zulu Nation and The Soulsonic Force. An old school legend like that really doesn't need an introduction... It's Pow Wow! Just read. There's some serious history below.

Well, I started at an early age, man, with a brother named Darryl D, bless his soul, and another brother named Eldorado Mike. Bless his soul also; they both passed on. And they took me to my very first hip-hop party; it was Kool Herc. And it just so happened that we all were from the same neighborhood in the South Bronx. I grew up on 168th St and Fulton Ave. And I don't know if you're familiar with Kool Herc's B-boys, Clark Kent and the Nigger Twins, Keith and Kevin. We were all raised up together, I mean before any hip-hop music and all that. I got into it, watching them dancing and all.

What year would that have been?

Whoa. I'm talking, like, '74, man, or '73. Eleven or twelve years old; I was a baby. And I had family that lived in Bronx Water Projects. And at that time, a lot of street gangs stayed in the Bronx. And I came from a street gang called The Black Pearls and The Saigons over on Watson Avenue. And the Black Spades had beat them up. And the guys that beat them up were from Bronx River Projects where I had family; I wound up going over there. And linking up with them guys, they were very unified. I liked the way they were operating. And then Bambaataa started DJing, and we started a B-boy group called The Zulu Kings. And basically, from there it just went from B-boying to MCing to music.

Was there a clear point where you switched from B-boying to MCing?

Oh yeah, well you know what? A lot of cats don't know this, man, but they weren't calling it B-boying. They were called Boi-oing kids. And Boi-oing kids went to B-boying, and B-boys went to break dancers; and MCing went from MCing to rapping. And we were boi-oing kids, man; that's what we were.

When it started, there were about seven of us. The Zulu Kings. And that became then the Zulu Nation, and then the mighty Zulu Nation and then the Universal Zulu Nation! But when it started, it was the gang the Black Spades. We started a group called The Organization and that became the Zulu Nation. It's a blessing. Because back in the days, like 37 years, all those crews… they don't even exist no more. But we have a worldwide following; and that's amazing to me.

So, when you hooked up with Bambaataa, did Biggs and G.L.O.B.E. come around the same time, or were they already down?

Well, Biggs was always there. Biggs was raised in Bronx River. Bigg was day 1 and I came on day 2. How G.L.O.B.E. came about was, I could teach G.L.O.B.E. how to dance; 'cause at the time, me and my friend Marcus were the baddest break dancers out in the Bronx. We were the best. And I used to teach people how to dance, like KK Rockwell from the Funky Four, even DJ Breakout. And I met G.L.O.B.E. from my younger sister. And once G.L.O.B.E. found out who he was, I took him under my wing. And one morning, we was going to school, he came to my house and said he wanted to be an MC. And he came with this rhyme, man, called "People, People" that just blew me away. So we started workin', writing stuff, by that summer. He was ready and me and G.L.O.B.E. just took it to the next level in rap, man, you know? Started doing a thing called MC poppin', that was triplets and fourfipolets and stuff like that wasn't even thinking about double-up and triple-up raps. So we started that, and we called it MC poppin'.

And then as time went on, we did a record with Paul Winley called "Zulu Nation Throwdown part 1," and it was so crazy because the drummer on the record was really a bass player. The music we had was like, to me, circus music. It wasn't it. And then the good Lord decided to bless us with "Planet Rock." That's the most sampled record in history. Every year, another two or three hits come out and I hear that beat. Kraftwerk don't know what they did!

Well, when did you guys decide that, from the Zulu Kings and all, that you three and Bambaataa were going to be The Soulsonic Force, more as a music group?

Oh well, there was a whole bunch of us. I think there was about eight of us at one time. But cats didn't want to come to practice, and only comin' to parties when they wanna come and stuff like that. Like originally Mr. Biggs was an MC, but he wasn't really into it like me and G.L.O.B.E. And my first partner, Love Kid Hutch, used to be down us. He used to be down with Busy Bee Starski. Used to be Starski and Hutch, but they broke up. But Hutch wound up going with Disco King Mario, bless his soul, and The Chuck City Crew; and after that, we came our way. The rest is history. And he left and went the way he wanted to go, instead of coming to practice like I said, like me, Biggs and G.L.O.B.E. was doing.

They cut they own selves off. I'm a team player, that's how I get down. If the team wins, then I'm gonna win. But if I think I can leave and then come back three or four days later and the format's done changed up on your ass, and you're wondering wow, what happened? Why nobody told me? Because you were not there. You gotta go to work every day, and that was our work. Me and G.L.O.B.E. sat down and ate it, breathed it, and got to the point where we ran out of fucking words to rhyme, man!

So it wound up just being us three that stuck it out. 'Cause me and G.L.O.B.E. were more in the hip-hop area than the Bronx River was. See, where we came from, we were hip-hop, with The L Brothers, DJ Smokey and the Smokeatron, he was from Grand Avenue. And a lot of guys, they don't take about him. I'll get back to what we were saying, but DJ Smokey, and his brother Roscoe and the Smokeatron, they were the baddest motherfuckers out at the time, man. I mean, Flash couldn't touch them, Kool Herc couldn't touch them. Nobody was touchin' Smokey. And a lot of cats will not speak on him, which they should, because he is also a pioneer of hip-hop music.

And what happened to him?

I heard he moved out of state. I heard he moved before hip-hop music turned big. I guess he cut it loose and went about his life, but DJ Smokey and his brother Roscoe, let me tell you, they threw the baddest parties. You wanted to see some guys that could dance? Man, it was a show! There's a movie theatre we had over on 174th St in the Bronx River called The Dover movie theatre that had a place you could give parties - it's a church now - but he made that spot very popular. He used to throw block parties mostly on Grand Avenue. And this guy here, I wanna let the world know about him; he definitely deserves his props, man, because he was there in the beginning. And a lot of guys don't that brother his recognition, which is sad; and I'ma give it to him every time all the time.

But as far as Bronx River, Bambaataa, he was the man. Because back then I went to every DJ you could view; I was at every party. Even Grandmaster Caz, who was a DJ called Casanova Fly… his first hop-hop was a place called The Eightball Room over on University Avenue. That's how much I'm into hip-hop; I am hip-hop. If there was a party, I was there, trust me.

A lot of DJs, like Hollywood or even Flash... you'd know what they were playing. Like ok, now it's "Got To Be Real," next it'll be "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now." And those are great, but everything I've heard from Bambaataa, it seemed like he was always playing different stuff, and you never knew what he'd pull out next.

A lot of guys, when they called themselves DJs, were trying to be mostly like Frankie Crocker, that disco shit. And Kool Herc, he played beats, he was the man that took it to the streets. But to me, a sure enough hip-hop DJ was Bambaataa. When he showed up, it was magic. And when you were a B-boy you'd hear all these break beats coming at you like, "oh shit; what is this? What is that?" I consider him to be the real first, stone cold hip-hop DJ. He played a little bit of disco, but the man kept it funky. Man, anybody at any age… I mean, parties we threw, sometimes peoples' mothers would come. And your uncles would come, your aunts. He would please everybody and everybody had a good time. And a lot of DJs cannot do that, no way. I've seen them" it's either this, or it's that. Bambaataa has it all. He is the master of records. Like Bambaataa was the first to play The Flaming Emeralds, things like that these cats were not up on. But believe me, Bambaataa has a stash that is so awesome, these guys heads' would spin!

As a matter of fact, last summer, Soulsonic Force… every year, every Wednesday and Thursday they give shows in the park here. And we finally got our chance to go up in there. Soulsonic went one day, then Bambaataa, Jazzy Jay and Red Alert went the next week. Man, listen. Bambaataa rocked that park so hard with not one MC! He didn't need none. The music did all that man's talking. The trees fell; he brought the park down. That man is music. If you take music away from Bambaataa, that's like taking somebody's eyes out their skull and asking them to cross a busy highway. Soulsonic has never done a show where we didn't bring the house down; that's just automatic.

Speaking of your shows, one thing I wanted to ask about was your costumes. One thing you were also known for was having those wild costumes; when did you start bringing them into your shows?

Well, Afrika Bambaataa was always into Parliament Funkadelic. We liked the way they did their shit, because everybody put their own image. We didn't want to be like Flash, the Funky Four and everybody else. That's why you notice there's a Furious Five, the Crash Crew, the Saigon Crew… everybody was this Crew or this Number. We decided to be different, like we always are. 'Cause in Bronx River, we got our own shit goin' on. And we came up with the name Soulsonic Force, and we became Mr. Biggs, Pow Wow and G.L.OB.E.; and we wanted to identify our own selves. That's why everybody had their costumes - G.L.O.B.E. represented the map; he had a costume with all these colors. I was Pow Wow the Indian, and Mr. Biggs was a warrior and Bambaataa wanted to be a barbarian. Everybody had their own thing, and we didn't want to dress like everybody else in leather suits or dressed like The Temptations. We weren't doing songs like that, with little commercial jingles. We was just flowin'.

Put it like this: there's a trend setter and a master of the trend. And we would rather be the trend setters. We used to be wild. We used to paint up, awesome shit, just having fun, being ourselves.

Well, yeah, I think that's the problem a lot of old school MCs run into when they make comebacks… They started out trendsetters, coming up with new things and being unique. But then when they comeback, suddenly they're dressing like the kids, getting whatever guest producers they think are hot today and wind up chasing the trends.

There you go. That's the key to it right there, brother. That's the fuckin' key; you opened Pandora's Box, man. That's the key to it, John: come out and be your fuckin' self. Be like when you was hungry in your fuckin' house, sittin' at your kitchen table, in your bedroom, or while you're on the toilet takin' a shit, thinkin' about what the fuck I'ma say at this party Friday that's not gonna sound like Melle Mel or Kidd Creole or Rahiem or KK Rockwell or nobody. I gotta sound like Pow Wow; I gotta do Pow Wow. And that's what I liked about us: we weren't trying to follow no image or be like nobody.

So it seems like, maybe because of that, it took Soulsonic a little longer to find a regular label home than a lot of other groups who settled into one right away. Like you went from Winley and eventually to Tommy Boy… I think you guys went to Sugar Hill, though you didn't actually wind up signing with them?

Well, the cut we did with Sugar Hill Records, I believe to this day would kick ass, man. It was called "The Rhythm of Life." It never jumped off; it never happened. We gave a party at Audubon Ball Room for us and Grandmaster Flash; but they didn't come. But Tommy Boy was there, and me and G.L.O.B.E. and Jazzy Jay did our thing. And they wanted to holler at us, man… and history was made.

Was that song you did for Sugar Hill with the Sugar Hill Band as well?

Exactly. Oh, they was bad, man, they was funky. We did a cut called "Who Do You Think You're Funkin' With" with Melle Mel that they did the music for, and another one called "What Time Is It?" We had Busy Bee Starski, Little Rodney C, Melle Mel, Soulsonic and my nephew Lamont. It was like a freestyle kinda thing; and Skip, Doug and Keith were bad, man. They're some bad motherfuckers!

Do you have that unreleased recording, "The Rhythm of Life?" Like could you still release that?

Oh, you know what? I doubt it because Sylvia Robinson I guess would own the music rights to it, and we would have to go and get permission and the whole scenario. But that was a bad motherfucker, man; that was a bad record. I was blessed to meet Ms Robinson through Cheryl the Pearl, and she sure looked like a cool lady to me. I mean socially… business-wise, I don't know! She pulled some numbers on some; and we didn't go with her, thank god! But as a human being, she's a sweet lady to me.

Was Tommy Boy better about that? Were they more on the level?

Hell no! They were all fucking crooks. Tommy Boy, Arthur Baker, John Robie, they were all fucking crooks! We're getting at them right now for that back money. They were all crooks. But at the end of the day, God gets the last word. So don't deal with me, deal with the man.

But you still did a record for them with G.L.O.B.E. called "Celebrate! (Everybody)."

Yeah, we did two. We did one called "You Made a Mistake; You Didn't Let Us In," and "Celebrate." And I was kinda pissed off with "Celebrate" because the first track we had for that was so hard! And they switched it. I was like, oh man, y'all done fucked the music up. Just leave well enough alone! I did not like the music for "Celebrate." "You Made a Mistake?" Eh, that was alright. That was just something we were in there fucking around with and they wound up keeping it.

And G.L.O.B.E. did a couple other records… G.L.O.B.E. is the man; I'll put him up against anybody. You get who you wanna get! Put them both up on that stage side by side, and he won't just beat them, he will annihilate them! He's a bad man with that mic, trust me. I'm not sayin' that 'cause he's my brother. Even if I didn't know him, I'd be saying the same thing. The boy is awesome; he IS the mic. G.L.O.B.E. is the mic.

I'd love to hear that original version of "Celebrate" some day.

Well, hopefully. Because I have a collection, man. I collect everything. I got some fly ass tapes and CDs that guys would kill for. But I'm gonna wait 'till I'm more on top of my shit, and then I'm gonna release some serious shit on cats, man. I got shit from before there was even records, but when you hear this shit you'll be like, oh man, these guys were having a ball! That type of thing… everybody was putting it down, man. I thank God I got my hands on it.

Then later on, there was The Lost Generation album…

Oh here you go! I'm ready for that 'cause everybody comes at me with that one. At that time, I had got released from prison in 1989. And I was doing my homework. I happened to come across a music book one day, and saw how I didn't get paid for the music. So instead of me going back and sitting back down and not doing nothing about it. I said, I'm gonna back off of everything, take my ass to the library and start reading some books! So when I was doing that, Biggs and G.L.O.B.E. wanted to do Lost Generation and I said me, I'm not doing that. I'm not fucking with Tommy Boy no more; they owe us money. There's a bigger picture; and at the end of the day you'll see what I'm talking about. That's why I was never on that album, because I refused to sign a contract with these fucking crooks and get dicked again. And that's what happened; they got fucked! So I avoided all that. I'm glad I didn't go that route. I'm glad I did what I did and learned what I learned; not just for me, but for the group also. And they're very appreciative of it, too.

And one album I wanted to ask you about, you probably don't get a lot of questions about: the Christmas Rappin' album by The Grand Rapmasters.

That was a project we did with Mike and Amad Henderson. That was a project they had put together. But I had done an original track on there called "Christmas To a Go-Go." Amad's brother John Henderson was dealing with public broadcasting. And they had a couple projects they wanted us to do. One was to remake the Christmas songs. And me and G.L.O.B.E. went on further and did a sex education rap about venereal diseases and stuff like that. It was for PBS; I done forgot the name of that one. I gotta do my homework on that one, because nobody ever asked me about that one. You're the first. We did the disease record because at that time the AIDS was really killin' us, you know? And then that's how the Christmas album came about.

Cheryl the Pearl told me that she was working with you now. How did that connection come about?

Little Rodney C, of the Funky Four, used to be down with this guy named DJ Steve, was the Awesome Two. That's who he used to MC with. And when he went to Sugar Hill, he introduced me to Cheryl the Pearl. See, I love to write. That's my first love; I'm a writer. I was telling him I could write songs at the time, and he told me, Pow Wow, I got the great combination for you. And that's been a relationship that's gonna last for a lifetime.

When was that?

What is this, 2010? Let's say 25 years ago. My youngest son was a baby; he's 25 now.

So this would've been after "Planet Rock" and all that, right?

Oh exactly. This was after "Planet Rock." And me and Cheryl started linking up, and we've been doing our thing since. We've got the connection now that we're ready to jump off try to put the realness back into the game. We've got some really, really hot stuff man. Cheryl, she's unique. She's got that down-home soul feel about her, and if you ever get to meet her, you will see an aura that's just like Heaven sent, man. She's an angel.

So tell us about some of the music you're planning to put out together now.

Man, listen! One of my favorite ones in called "Phuck It Up." The ceilings gonna fall when they hear this one. It's so much. I got something really serious; it's called "Feel Me." That's really deep. I could tell you titles 'till titles come home! As a matter of fact, Cheryl just hit me with twenty new titles. And one of the new titles, if we pull this off, I think is gonna be as big as "Planet Rock." It'll never go nowhere. It will never die. Like they say, "Rock & Roll Is Here To Say?" It'll never die. Cheryl is just brilliant, she's just fucking brilliant.

And how are you guys doing with distribution now? Because obviously the music industry's changing…

You know what? I love it! I love it because we cut out the middle man, we cut out the distribution people, cut out the record labels. We cut all these cats out our pocket. You just come and download and send that money to our account. You know how much you're saving? You don't have to promote shit; the music promotes itself. You don't have to pay that shit no more, the middle man is done. Record companies are done. You can start your own goddamn label. The matrix is something else, and I love it! I'm happy for the change.

It's bigger than what you think, man. We're taking it home. These are some songs you can relate to. If you got a heart, some soul and some fucking morals, you can relate. And everybody I know has at least one of the three, so we're good. Taking it back to basics, that's it. Not talking about, "I fucked your girl, I got the glock and it's like that," blah blah blah. Get the fuck out of here! Them niggers don't have the slightest idea what it's like when a bullet comes so close, you feel the heat of the motherfucker. They don't know about that. And if they did know about it, they wouldn't recommend it. We have some hardcore artists, too; don't get me wrong. But for me speaking personally, I'm not going that route. You know what Kool & the Gang said? "Music is the message I sing with universal love for one and all." That sums it up right there for me; that's what it's about. So here we come again, rollin' down the mountainside like a ball of fuckin' thunder, man.

So listen, I wanna put a shout out when you put this out there[I did my best with these names! Apologies in advance for what I'm sure are many errors and possibly a couple omissions about to follow:]. I wanna shout out the man Bambaataa, G.L.O.B.E., Mr. Bigg, Jazzy Jay, Cutman LG, Amad Henderson, my brother Sundance, and most of all to my brother Marcus, who was the A1 B-boy on the planet; nobody could touch my man, he was the best. My man KO, Ace 1 Gutta, My brother Freddy, Shaqueena, Keenan, Cody, Killer, Kay, the rest of my grandkids, the original D-Nice from The Hill Crew, matter of fact the whole Hill Crew, Westwood Projects, Washington Projects, Bronx River Projects, Capital Hill Projects, to my man Star out there in Brooklyn, Coney Island, Zulu Crew, Michelle - I love you forever, my daughter, my sister Luanda, Joanne, my nephew Anthony, Michael Glover, Danny Glover, my girl Yvette, Kabuki - may she get better, Roscoe… I'm trying to put this all up in there, because I don't hardly do these interviews like this. Cheryl the Pearl, Niecy, Leesy, Mo, Brandon, Harvey, Momma Pearl, Shirley, Carlos - bless your soul, Panther, my boy Crazy Mike, Comanche, Wanda, Simone, Cheyenne, Campy, Cool C, Crazy Phil, Outlaw, Nicky Benson, Smitty.

April 26th is the release date for Cheryl the Pearl's first two joints. She and Pow Wow were working on putting together the release party when we talked, so if you're in the NY area, look out for that announcement. Oh, and if you noticed the "Soulsonic part 1" in the title; that's right. There's a part 2 very soon to follow! ;)

Time for MC Shan To Defend Himself

"Time for Us To Defend Ourselves" is one of many singles on MC Shan's generally critically panned third album, Play It Again, Shan. Without the guiding hand of Marley Marl (or any of the other regular Cold Chillin' producers), Shan was lost, self-producing house songs, love songs, duets with his wife, songs he's not even featured on himself. It had his moments of decent-ness, but as a whole; it's really hard to defend that album.

Fortunately, "Time for Us To Defend Ourselves" was one of the better moments. Shan is hardcore mode with a serious message about police brutality:

"There's a big loophole in justice.
Law enforcement's to serve and protect,
But in my neighborhood, they break your neck.
Police are ruthless-minded, wicked and villainous;
But not just I see you're killin us'.
What about the parents of the kid y'all killin'?"

The beat, however, is not what you'd hope for considering Shan's other work records (and even since). But that's what happens when you stop working with the greats and try to do everything yourself. Actually, that's not strictly accurate. He was co-producing with a guy named John Ficarrotta. He's more known as an engineer than a producer, but he did a lot with Shan around that time (including working on Snow's album). But it amounts to the same thing, and Shan has since said (from the book How To Rap by Paul Edwards), "I don't like to produce the songs I [rap] on, because that's too much of me influencing me and no other negative voices, a devil's advocate to say, 'Nah, don't do it that way - do it this way.'" Yeah, that's a nice way to put it.

But, still; his production wasn't all bad. Some of the tracks on Play It Again worked, and this one is... in between. It's got a great hook, mixing together a collection of compelling vocal samples, and it's got a ringing "UFO"-style loop behind it. Then there's a metal-ish guitar riff, which is kinda atmospheric, but also kinda corny. It's certainly not the kinda thing Large Professor would've ever messed with.

But that's where this 12" is saved. Because the remix that's also included on this 12" is the one point during the Play It Again madness where Shan reached out to one of Cold Chillin's in-house power producers, DJ Mister Cee. Mr. Cee reached out to two new guys, Outload and PF Cuttin, to collaborate on the remix with, who of course went on to become Blahzay Blahzay.

So to say this remix is an improvement is a serious understatement. It keeps what works about the original - the vocal samples on the hook - and replaces everything else. There's an infinitely funkier new beat, a variety of samples and fresh scratches. It might seem a little upbeat for the subject matter... that's one thing the LP version had going for it: the darker tone. But if that was their reasoning for using the LP version in the video, they were nuts, because this version's just flat-out better music.

But you don't just get the album version, the overhaul that features the best production Shan had at that time, and the nifty picture cover. This 12" has the unique B-side track, "Even If I Tore It," Shan's Craig G diss, recorded in response to Craig's "Going for the Throat" (a CD-only bonus track on his second album). You could be forgiven for not realizing that's what it was, though, because the rhymes are so general, he could just as well be spitting generic battle rhymes against theoretical sucker MCs than Craig if you didn't know the full story going in.

"Fuck a Miller, I'ma rip me a Bud,
While you're lying face-dwon in a puddle of blood.
No bargain, no pleadin', no case to acquit;
Stupid motherfucker, this is how you rip shit!
Goin' to sleep, put your teeth in storage;
Goin' through life sippin' soup and porridge.
Forget gold, ya think you done me;
Worry about yourself and stop tryin' to son me.
You couldn't write better if you switched up pens.
I don't know about records, but you make dope bookends.
See on the down-low, somebody snitched;
I hope you didn't think I'd run like a bitch.
I'm outta ya sight, but never put me outta your mind.
You can't get yours, so figured you would take mine?
With a hammer and chisel, you couldn't chip it.
(Even if I tore it, you still couldn't rip it!)"

...Those are the most specific rhymes in the whole song, the rest are completely unspecific (which isn't to say that they're wack or anything... they just don't have anything Craig G specific about them). The beat is self-produced again, too. It's decent, and all in all adds up to a nice little diss track; but it's not the underground classic it could've been if he'd stuck with his winning producer combo of the A-side. But if you don't get hung up on what might've been, and just accept what is, you get a gem of an addition to your crates, and definitely the best material Shan was putting out in this period.

Hip House Frees James Brown

Yaknow, house music isn't always awful. I mean, sure, we all know what it's like to skip past the obligatory, irritatingly terrible house song on an otherwise classic hip-hop album (along with the ultra-cheesy, whispered love rap). And we all know what it's like to go on a digging trip and recoil in horror at a DJ's collection of all cheesy club and house 12"s, priced at a dollar a pound. But still, every once in a while, house is awesome.

Now this is a record I'd after for a long time. I could picture the video from Yo! and Rap City, I could still sing the hook, and I had a reasonable idea of what the title of the song had to be. But there's actually several "Free James Brown"s from that era. Chili Most, Mass Appeal, some guy names Robert Lusson... all had records out called "Free James Brown." Plus, there were songs that weren't precisely titled "Free James Brown," but were close enough to throw ya off the track... "Free Our Brother" (which was indeed referring to James Brown) by Boogie Down, or even Luhuru's humorous take on the subject, "In Jail."

But the fine folks at the OldSchoolHipHop forums helped set me straight on the song I was after: "Free James Brown" by the Hip House Syndicate. Hell, I didn't even remember that it was a house song (which is probably why I kept passing over it on my search); I just remembered the Juice Crew-style posse cut (the girl even sounds like Shanté) of MC's taking turns kicking verses on the injustice that the great JB was in jail. Granted he led the police on a drug-induced, pistol-wielding high-speed chase after being accused of raping and torturing a woman at shotgun-point; but come on, this is the man that recorded "Give It Up Or Turnit a Loose" for gosh sake! Are you gonna wag your finger and nitpick every little indiscretion?

So, anyway, this is it. Produced by the one and only Farley Jackmaster Funk, the Chicago DJ/producer who damn near invented house music. Like a lot of house and club records, this actually came out overseas first. It was released as "Free At Last" in 1989 with a colorful picture cover first. But, like the sticker up top illustrates, the video broke over here, which compelled Select Records to put it out here in 1990. I got the US 12" 'cause I'm in the US, I found it for 99 cents, and it has more mixes.

The main mix, the one from the video etc, is on both 12"s - it's the L&R Mix. It's got the signature piano line with the fundamental house beat and groovy bassline. And really, that's the only one you really need. Still, the added remixes aren't bad. The Deep Mix features an unusual but catchy sample, and The House Mix features the same sample James Brown sample as Kool Moe Dee's "Death Blow" and others ("Get On the Good Foot"), and after all it's kinda fitting to have more James Brown music in an anthem dedicated to him. They're all essentially over the same core house track, though; so if you're hoping for more of a "pure hip-hop" version, you're gonna be disappointed.

You can't separate the house from this song, but that's ok. This is still classic hip-hop: "To free this brother is my duty/ No need for the nine or the uzi/ We can do this with justice/ All the jealous suckers know this!" Unfortunately, though, I don't think anything came of the Hip House Synidcate MCs, which is a shame. With the right production behind them, they could've had a fresh 80's album. ...Oh, and as for James? He did a little time for assaulting a police officer and some other stuff related to that chase; but he never had to face that original rape charge, and the evidence against him - DNA, polygraph, etc. - never got heard in court (if you're thinking, "I thought he was convicted for that," you're probably thinking of one of the many domestic violence charges against him; but those all came later). So chalk up 1 win for house music.

MC Beta

(Youtube version is here.)

Don't You Sit Back Down - Cheryl the Pearl interview

I doubt I have to tell many people reading my blog who Cheryl the Pearl is, but if you're not sure; she's one third of the classic rap group, The Sequence. The first rap act from the South, one of the very few rap groups to release a hip-hop record before 1980 (Sugar Hill Gang, Kurtis Blow, Lady B, The Sequence and King Tim III are pretty much it), and just one of the premiere female hip-hop groups of all time. Cheryl was also a solo artist and a song writer for other groups, but you can learn all about that below. ;)

When you guys formed The Sequence in South Carolina, had hip-hop really reached there yet at that time?

Our first sing that came out was "Funk You Up" in '79, almost the winter. It was October when we met Ms. Robinson. Before the Sugar Hill Gang, the only two people that we had heard were King Tim III and Lady B out of Philadelphia. The Sugar Hill Gang was doing a concert here in Columbia, South Carolina. And we got backstage passes. Well, a guy let us in, because we were supposed to have passes. They weren't there, but we got in anyway.

We got backstage and a guy named Nate Edmond told us to send him a cassette. And we were like, nah, we can't send no tape; we gotta do this in front of you now. He was like, well, we're getting ready to go on stage now, so you're gonna have to send me a tape. We were settin' to tell him, we're not sendin' no tape; and Ms. Robinson was sitting in a chair in the corner and she said, "I'll listen to you." We said, you would? She said, "yeah. What do you girls do?" We told her we write songs, we sing and we rap. She said, "ok, do what you do."

So we started singing and the songs at first kinda hit her, but didn't really hit her. And we were getting ready to walk out and watch the Gang on stage, and I don't know whether it was Angie or Gwen who said, "but we didn't do 'Funk You Up'." And she said, "well, come back in here and do it." So we came in and started singing, "we're gonna funk you, right on up, gonna funk you right on up. Get up, get up, get up, get up, get up, get up, get up, sit back down!" She said, stop, don't sing no more."

She stopped the band from getting up on stage. She stopped everything. She got Doug, Skip and Keith LeBlanc to come into the dressing room. She said, "y'all gotta here this. Ok, y'all do it again for us, alright?" So we started singing and jamming right in the room there. They started playing and it became like a jam session really. So she said, "ok, which one of y'all want to rap first?" So Gwen came in with her rap, and then she said, "Ok, Cheryl, you go," and I came in. And then Angie came in and everybody came in. There wasn't really anybody on stage doin' it, because everybody came to the dressing room.

So the guys went out on stage and she said, "you go out there, too." So we were out there, standing on stage with the Gang while they performed "Rapper's Delight!" And so she saw that we weren't afraid, I think. And she said, "I'm gonna make you girls stars." Those were her exact words: I'm gonna make you stars.

So you guys were already performing the raps for "Funk You Up" and all back then, or had you been more just a singing group?

Well. We were just a singing group until the day before we knew we were going to a Sugar Hill concert!

(Laughs)

Me and Angie were on the cheer-leading squad, so to write something quick was no thing. And Gwen was on the pep team, so she wasn't afraid to be in front of people as well. So we basically put the raps together earlier that day, just in case they asked us to rap. We didn't really know what rap really was, but to us it sounded like cheering, "dun, you can do it, dun da da da do it, oh, you got ta do it!" It was like how we cheered. So we were like, let's just write an eight-bar rap just in case somebody asks us to rap, 'cause it was a rap concert. And Ms. Robinson was the one that suggested we put the rap in the song.

And when Gwen came on, "my name is Gwen, but they call me Blondie," she just flipped like oh my god, I can't believe this is happening! She said, "you go Cheryl," and I started, "my name is Cheryl, and I'll tell you why, 'cause I got such sexy bedroom eyes." She said stop, and then Angie came in, "Angie B is what they say; I got chocolate hips and the milky way." She just smiled ear to ear as if to say, "I got my next group. I got three guys, and now I got three girls."

So on their way evening, she said, "I'm gonna call you around the middle of next week, Wednesday or Thursday, and your tickets will be at the airport Friday. And I need for y'all to get on the plane, come to Jersey, and do this particular song." We said ok! But then we had to go back home and convince our parents.

I was eighteen, Angie had just turned twenty, and Angie was seventeen. So we had to beg her mom to let her come out with us; we would look out for her, and if it didn't work out, we would all come back together. So they took a chance because Angie was still in school, but they didn't want her to miss her break if this was a break for us. So they agreed to let Angie come along, and our parents took us to the airport, put us on the plane, and the rest was history!

So, did you guys stay up in New Jersey, or were you flying back and forth for every record?

Well, in the beginning, we stayed there for a couple of weeks, just to really feel out everything. Ms. Robinson made living arrangements for us with one of her nieces, for as long as we wanted to stay up. 'Cause we brought clothes like we were never coming back anyway! But we got homesick. They ate out at restaurants every day and we were like, we want some cooked food - we need to go back home! She saw we were getting that look and said, "y'all wanna go back home?" We said yeah, can we go back home, and when you're ready for us, call us? And so she let us come back home.

Ok, we got discovered on Gwen's birthday. The day we heard "Funk You Up" on the radio was my birthday, November 19. And Angie's birthday, which was December 18, was when we were on the road with The Sugar Hill Gang. So everything went in like a sequence that particular year on '79. Gwen turned 20 on October 20, I turned 19 on November 19 and Angie turned 18 on December 18. So we really did have a combination there that was probably supposed to happen.

Did "Funk You Up" reach back to South Carolina? Did people know what you were doing, like, oh you guys are The Sequence now when you got back home?

No… we were home when we first heard it. Vanessa Pendergrass on WOIC broke the record for us here. But we still had problems with radio stations playing that particular record here, because we were saying "Funk you up," but I guess parents were hearing their kids saying something different, so they started attacking the radio stations. So after "Funk You Up," we had to be real careful with the lyrics, because it was important to get your record played. So "Funk You Up" broke in the clubs; it wasn't from the radio. And it was still a time when rap was really unacceptable. Nobody but the kids were catching on to it.

Well, and you guys on the cusp of some controversial lyrics at that time, too, in a topical way. Especially considering it was pre-"Message."

Yeah. Well, I would always try to write something that hopefully would help somebody if they were going through something. But Ms Robinson also wanted to keep it fun, so we often had to make it "let's just have fun." Like which one are you talking about?

Like on "Simon Says," you had that verse about the girl who gets pregnant and then her boyfriend leaves her.

Oh, ok! Yeah. "Get pumped, we'll take the pill. The guys wanna make love every day, but when you get pumped, they run away. Knowing it's something that you did, but he says, boo, it's not my kid." Yeah. I think, before the tables turned, we were getting ready to do some new music that was closer to what Mel was doing, putting out something to make people think. All of us being writers, we had our feel for it, and then things kinda changed when a lot of people started coming into it. Started making it hard to get in the studio and be creative like we wanted to. And then a whole bunch of other things were going on at the company that just stifled peoples' growth, and not allowing them to just do what they do.

Like when Sugar Hill started signing new artists?

Yeah, when they brought new artists in, some of the artists that had been there earlier would be kicked to the backbone. If you weren't coming to them with something that was hitting, it wasn't going anyway. It had to be hitting like when they came with "Rapper's Delight," then "Funk You Up," then "8th Wonder," then "Tear the Roof Off," then Flash and them's stuff, "Freedom." So it was just constant hits coming back to back. Sot hen it became a competition, because all of the groups would try to come to the table with the hottest stuff. And then The West Street Mob, that was Sylvia's son's group; and they were doing the singing and chants-type stuff. And Angie and myself were a part of that, too. We did "Let's Dance" for Joey.

Yeah, that's actually something I wanted to ask about. Because you're in the credits for a bunch of their songs, actually.

Yeah. I did a lot of writing back then. Not just for the Sequence, but the Sugar Hill Gang and the West Street Mob.

And so is that you pretty much whenever we heard female voices on one of their records, like "Mosquito" and all?

Probably me and Angie. We did most of the vocals for everything that was going on back then.

And who besides JR was the West Street Mob, exactly? There was Warren?

That was Warren, his best friend.

Was Kory O a member back then?

Kory came into the West Street Mob a little later down the line.

Back when they were still doing records, or later later?

Later. Maybe '85, '86.

And then I think there was DJ Scott or Scotty?

I just know Leland Roberts used to do a lot of the DJing around that time for Joey, and that was his brother. Oh, and Scotty! I remember. That was a friend also; that was one of Joey's friends.

Now, in 1985, you guys had a record called "Control." It says on the label it's for a compilation called Sugar Hill Stars Taking Over?

I don't know why they had that on that record. At that time was when the company was really going through something . That was supposed to be my first single as a solo artist. And they put it out for about three or four weeks before the company actually closed. And my "Control" came out before Janet Jackson's "Control." A lot of the people at Sugar Hill started working at… I think it was A&M Records, or whichever company Janet was under, and they took my music over there. And what I think is that they heard my song and they rewrote her song from what they heard I had done. And so her song, "Control! Den den de-de-ne-den, Den den, Control!" My song went, "Den den den, control! Taking control! Taking taking control, con troll." See, they took their thing and made it just a little bit different, but it was almost on the same thing. They changed the lyrics a little bit, and what they fitted with Janet was perfect. But Joe at that particular time said, "Cheryl, I think you have another hit," because they were sending out orders of 3, 4, 5 thousand copies to all the places. Orders were coming in for the record. But those records got lost because the company closed. And it was always in the air.

I held that song for five years before I recorded it. And I wish that I had held it longer, because I didn't know that it was gonna get caught in the mix of that when the company went down. And then when I heard her song, it just crushed my heart. I think her name was Iris or Irish Perkins, she was doing promotion work at Sugar Hill Records. And then when she went over to their company, she had gotten a bigger position over there, and she had all of our music with her. And that really scared me to think that they would take my music and get somebody else to recut my music. And then the Robinsons were in a position to fight for my rights. And I think if you look at that record, they had given me either 50 or 100% of the song.

The writing credits, right? Because the song itself is billed to the whole Sequence.

Yeah. I was the only one doing work on that song. At that time, too, Angie had gotten married to Rodney and they weren't really allowing them to make money in the company. But Gwen and I had to find a way to put music out there and continue on and hopefully they would let Angie come in and do what she needed to for us to still be a group. But it was a terrible time for a lot of people down there. People weren't putting their all into it because the company wasn't paying. In the beginning, the company was paying, and then all of a sudden, you would just have to like beg them for your money. And Rodney and all of them were from that city, so they knew maybe a little more than we knew coming into the game; but things just took a turn and they started getting really tight with the money. And they caused all of the groups to say, nope, I'm not doing this. So either way they were gonna crash, because the groups weren't willing to do their best work.

Did you have much recorded that didn't get released? I know there was the infamous fire at Sugar Hill, where a lot of stuff was lost.

There wasn't much that didn't come out, but yeah, that was a very old building when we were in it, really messed up real bad, shouldn't've been open. It was a fire waiting to happen, with so many wires and things that were loose, and certain rooms that they never even worked out of because they needed so much work. In the beginning they were fixing the building up, but then, I can't tell you exactly the business end, whether they were paying taxes or not paying taxes, but things just went crazy. So they stopped spending money and they stopped fixing it up. And one thing lead to another.

Sugar Hill certainly had a lot of well-known issues with paying some of the artists, and the Gang had a lot of public legal battles with them.

Well, right now I have a lawsuit going on with them as well. In fact, I'm waiting for my lawyer to call me back with a court date. Because there's a lot of music back then that a lot of people have sampled since then and they don't like to pay. Sugar Hill don't like to pay; they think our money is their money.

So, like, when a Sequence song appears on a compilation, or like that big Sequence CD set on Sequel Records comes out, do they pay you guys at all?

Nothing. People out there are still buying our music, and we get not one coin from it. That's what makes our history so messed up. So what my lawyer's trying to do is get my publishing rights back and my royalties that I'm not getting right now and have not gotten since we left the company. They never sent us a statement since '85, and then they sold to Castle Records, and they wasn't paying us. I'd see you know, a big ol' Story of Sugar Hill selling for 89-100 dollars, and they still said we were in the hole and came up with every excuse not to pay us. Then it went from Castle Records to Sanctuary, they wouldn't pay us. So everywhere out catalog has gone, nobody has said we need to pay these people.

Dr. Dre redid "Funk You Up," which was in the Friday movie. I think they sampled something from "8th Wonder" in one of Eddie Murphy's movies. And Jennifer Lopez sampled from "8th Wonder," too. Busta Rhymes… These are all big name artists that sold anywhere from 5 to 10 million copies of their album. When Dre did "Keep Their Heads Ringing," they cut our percentage down to 6% each, me and Gwen and Angie: 6, 6, 6; and everybody else took the majority of our song. And I thought they couldn't take anything from us without permission. How can you take 25% of our song and I never gave you permission to take it? Even the Robinsons shouldn't've had permission to give them that of our song.

So the court date is coming in the next couple of months. My lawyer said, :I think they're gonna wanna settle with you, Cheryl; I don't think they'll want to go to court.," Because the music I was doing back then with them, and the things that I have credit for, are the songs that people sample over and over again. And the sales on those things are really, really high. But right now, it's up in the air. When the day comes and it's over with, I'll just be glad. I always say, I never want something that belongs to anybody else, all I want is what I worked for. Whatever percentages that I worked for and we agreed upon is what I want - what is rightfully mine. And because they held on to our money, my times didn't have to be as hard as they were if they had paid us what we earned. I don't enjoy taking anybody to court, but I gotta live just like they're living. That's my work.

That ain't my best work, because I have new stuff coming, don't get me wrong. But that's a part of my history, the work I did then. I am 100 times better than the stuff I did then, so they are really in trouble!

So when Sugar Hill closed down, I know you did that record on Posse… Were you originally trying to stick together as a group, as Sequence, or…?

No, we had already broken up as a group then. Angie had gotten married and had her little girl, Diamond, at that time, and she had her family. And Gwen was out in Texas about to get married, too, and didn't have any interest in it at that time. So I ran into Donald D. Me and Donald had met from his coming to Sugar Hill. So when I ran into Donald in Harlem, he said, "Cheryl, what you doing?" And I said nothing right now. So he took me to Spring Records, and they agreed to do a single on me.

But what I asked was, before you put out anything on me, I need to hear the mix; I need to know what it sounds like before it goes out there. And what they did - he and his brother, B Fats, was just go in there and do everything the way they wanted and just let me hear the record. And I told them in the beginning, if you try to play me like Silly Willy, you're gonna just have a record. I'm gonna be gone. And that's what happened with that record. I never traveled with that record, I never received a coin from it. It was what it was and I left it at that.

So they never paid you for that either?

Never. All my classic work, never got paid! (Laughs) It's crazy, but it's life.

And then after that, I started doing some work up in Harlem with some kids that were really, really good. I was praying that even if they weren't still with me that they would still get their break, because they were really good artists. I would take them in the studios and teach them… I had friends that were producers that would work with them on their art. And trying to teach the kids to better protect themselves if they were coming into that field. They did some good work at that time! This one particular kid was from Far Rockaway, really took me to another place. I still don't hear anything out there to this day that was close to what this kid was doing then.

Was there ever a record out?

No, he didn't trust the industry! I don't know where he is, but he had an unbelievable talent. He would've been the next hot - if given the chance - to really do some great work. Maybe someday I'll find him. He was really unbelievable.

My new project, I'm working with some really talented rappers. Not just people talking about guns and killing, but people that's talking about something and make sense. So that's what I would like to get into: finding people that're saying and doing something a little bit better than what they're doing now.

When did you start recording and getting back into it again?

Well, when I came back to South Carolina, it was because my grandparents took sick. First my grandmother had throat cancer, and she passed. And then my grandfather had prostate cancer. And I came back taking care of them, and my two sisters at that time were heavily on the drugs, and there were five kids that had to be raised. At that time, my nieces were three or four - they're fifteen and sixteen now - and I just couldn't walk away from the kids. My mother at that time was sick herself, and I couldn't walk away from my family situation chasing after a dream.

So I took the time, sitting and raising them, to do my homework about an industry that had done me some damage. I don't want that to ever happen to me again. And my new music, I don't want that to be locked down under anybody. That type of stuff is never gonna happen to me again.

I write songs like people drink water. That's another thing that people don't know about me - I'm loaded!

(Laughs)

And I don't just do one type of music. I don't just do rap or hip-hop, I write, sing, rap and produce, I do it all. And I'm an artist, so I'm very creative with whatever I decide to do. And the two singles that I'm gonna release in April or May - those are R&B songs.

I read an interview online with Blondie, where you two were doing something together?

Yeah. We were, and then something happened and we got separated. I haven't heard from her in a while. Her sister passed; I think that was the last time. She lives in North Carolina, and we were gonna do some new work. We couldn't wind up being in the same place at the same time, and that kinda messed things up; so I just decided that I'm gonna do my thing. Everybody doing their thing, I'm gonna do my thing, like James Brown says. And I work with Pow Wow, you know Zulu Nation? We've got some stuff that's unbelievable. The world's gonna get shook up; this man's got some 2030 stuff, and I don't think the world is even ready for him.

You can check out those new R&B songs she's talking about on Cheryl's myspace page. She's also got an official website for her label in the works, blackbottoment.com, so keep your eye on that as well.

Representing Providence On Wax

This is a pretty nice compilation album that's just dropping now from a new label, Pro-Town Records. It's limited to 300 copies, but unlike most limited vinyl releases today, it's not priced to gouge the collector, it's actually priced below the norm: $10 for a full-length LP (11 songs + an intro). It's by a crew from Providence (Pro-Town, see?) Rhode Island that've been down for a good while, but up 'till now haven't put much music out. The full line-up consists of: Romen Rok, DJ Al Bums, Cevtwo, J Strest, Info Mite, Swerve One, Roe Diggs, Minister Ref, Jahpan and Chachi Carvalho. Some of them have put in some guest verses over the years - you may remember Romen Rok from Joe Beats' solo album for instance - but probably made the most noise with their album as Funkbunker Fleet (Slap & Spit) in 2003.

This album is a compilation of material recorded from 1999-today. And what's fun is that you can't tell what's from the 90's and what's recent when listening to it. It's totally consistent and timeless. The production (primarily handled by Al Bums) is on one-hand pretty varied - they use a wide variety of samples, some upbeat and soulful, others loop soulful crooning - but on the other hand, it's all pulled into a unified style of straight boom-bap hip-hop.

Lyrically, it's pretty consistent, too. Some songs are posse cuts, others are solo songs. But regardless, they're pretty much all non-stop battle rhymes in the vein of clever wordplay that only briefly pauses for some scratched-in hooks. You can distinguish who's rapping by their voices alright (Info Might has a gruffer voice, Al Bum's voice is deeper, etc), but writing-wise they seem to speak with one voice. "Love Is Blue," a more contemplative tune, is pretty much the only song that isn't about dissing "you," dropping punchlines ("I'll never get washed up - just like my dirty dishes") and flexing skills ("I stay busy as a bee stuck in a bucket of molasses"). But let's face it, we don't generally like our MCs to stray too far from the formula, do we? And they don't.

So I encourage you to check it out. It won't replace your favorite record by the masters like Rakim or the random rap greats like Unique, but it's some solid underground hip-hop. You can check out snippets and more (they're already planning their next release) at their blog, pro-townrecords.blogspot.com. When releases like this drop in 2010, I feel there's still hope the hip-hop vinyl scene.

And That's That!

A new review of mine just went live on Diggers With Gratitude, back on some rare 90's random rap steez! Even better, it's UMC's-related. Check it out here.
And stay tuned for another dope, limited (but affordably priced!) LP review and a new interview with an old school legend coming in the next couple days. 8)

A New Day In the Life - Kwamé Interview

I had the chance to do a deep, in-depth interview with the one and only Kwamé a few months ago for HHC. Unfortunately, it looks like the issue of The Original this was written for isn't happening now (although the next issue of HHC Digital is still coming, so look out for that!), so I'm posting it here. We cover everything from his early days to his revival as producer K1 Mil, a breakdown of the full New Beginning line-up, Tat Money's move from The Hilltop Hustlers, EST, an unreleased Kwamé album from 1996... hell, just read it!

Actually, my first question might wind up being almost an entire interview in itself, but I wanted to get into all the members of New Beginning… just who everybody is, what they did.

Ok. Well, New Beginning… I was trying to put together a group bigger than just your average hip-hop group where everybody had a simple place. So, the original members first… you had A-Sharp, who at the time was a singer. He was supposed to be the male singer in the group, and he also was a song writer. And he was also like a fashion guy. Him and I would be the ones running around trying to get a look for the group.

B-Flat was our original DJ. B-Flat was a cat I went to school with who I’ve known since fifth grade, so he just, through osmosis, wound up in the group. He was pretty much the only DJ I knew.

So, are there any songs where it’s him doing the scratching, as opposed to Tat Money?

The whole first album. Any cuts that’s on the first album, that was B-Flat. One song that comes to mind is “Pushthepanicbutton!!!”

Then we had C-Major. Everybody had the musical names. He was pretty much the only one that didn’t have too much to do in the group; he was just one of our boys from high school. We were just all good friends, so he came along and we gave him a title. But his role was very short-lived when it just wasn’t working out like that. It was like, “ok, I’m paying all these guys;” and I had to trim the fat.

And then B-Flat left the group. And he formed another group with his brother than had one record in the 90’s called “Party Line.” And the name of the group was Fifth Platoon.

The funny thing is, before my first album came out, outside of the crew that I was with – like Salt-N-Pepa, Kid ‘N’ Play, and Dana Dane and them – the first rapper I met was Steady B. So I got cool with Steady. And I got cool with Tat Money. I got real cool with Tat Money, and so him and Steady were having problems at the time. And me and B-Flat were having problems at the time. So I just thought it would be a good power move to get a DJ that hip-hoppers knew and put him in a crew that hip-hoppers knew. So that’s how Tat Money came about.

And were there ever any problems with The Hilltop over that?

It was never beef with The Hilltop. And it was weird because I’m surprised that it wasn’t. Because, at the time my best friend was EST, and he had problems with Hilltop, and Tat Money had problems with Hilltop, but I didn’t. I think I was just like the middle man. I said, look, this isn’t “Kwamé and a New Beginning’s beef.” The problems that you guys have are personal problems from when you guys were kids. And there were situations where we all sat down and were like, look, this doesn’t have anything to do with shows, this has nothing to do with records. We don’t talk about cha’ll on the record. You don’t talk about us on the record, so there should be no beef. If there’s a personal issue, handle it personally. And that was pretty much the difference between hip-hop then and now, when it comes to things like that.

Then, the last member was Tasha. Tasha joined us on the second album, but she originally was an artist in a female rap group, or rap/slash singing group that I was producing at the time. And that didn’t work out. So I was just like, “hey, why don’t you join my group?” And that’s how we came to be.

I remember with Tasha Lambert, there was a ton of buzz that she was gonna go solo for a while there…

Tasha had a deal with Elektra. The album was recorded and ready to go. And right before mastering, she called the record label and told them that she had found Jesus and could not sing that kind of music anymore.

Oh, wow!

And that was the beginning and the end of Tasha Lambert’s career.

Yeah, I remember her and the girl who sang for Candyman both had a lot of publicity going about solo careers coming that never happened.

Yup. And I did some great records on that album. But that never saw the light of day.

So I guess that’s just in Elektra’s vaults somewhere?

Yup. I was so jaded by that situation, I don’t even have copies of it!

So then, I guess that unreleased album would be a natural segue to my next question… apparently, you have a 1996 unreleased album?

Oh yeah; how’d you find out about that? That was a pretty good album, too. Very good album. I was sort of in between whether I wanted to just go forward as a producer or try to continue my work as an artist. And during that time, I recorded an album.

Was that for a label, or something you were doing on your own to shop, or…?

Well, at the time I was on this label called Ichiban, and I released an album called Incognito on that label. And the deal was to do just one album. And we were in talks to possibly do a second. But I think, where I was at the time, I didn’t want to deal with the whole ins and outs of being an artist for whatever reason, and I never continued with Ichiban. Ichiban folded anyway. I had a fully recorded album, but I just felt that my calling was more producing records than going on the circuit and falling into the powers of the record label. You know, you have good records, but you have but so much control as an artist.

And how much did either label - Ichiban or Atlantic - interfere with what you were doing? Because I imagine you were a bit of a unique case for them...

Oh, very much so! I can honestly say that things rappers are doing today, I was fighting to do in 1989, 1990. Things as simple as singing over… like, you know how Kanye West’s 808s and Heartbreaks sounds? I was making records like that, and it was a fight. Labels were saying: you’re a rapper; you have to stay a rapper. You can’t do things like that.

Or something as simple as “Ownlee Eue.” The “Ownlee Eue” record was a big fight. That record was originally written and produced for Vanessa Williams at the time. And I didn’t make the album’s deadline, so I put another verse on it and I said, look. At that time, rap records could not get played before 6pm. It’s like radio stations were doing this thing called a “no rap workday;” and radio stations were literally boycotting rap records. Because, at the time, NWA was coming out, and the rap records were getting a little bit too out of hand. So what I thought up was, “let me make a record that’s 50% rap and 50% R&B, push it as an R&B record with me pretty much as the feature, so we can get these records play at 6 in the morning as opposed to 6pm.” Oh my god, that was the biggest fight! That was the biggest fight... And even in the end, they just halfway pushed that one.

You know, another thing I had a fight with the label was I said, “for this album – the second album – let me make, instead a bunch of broken up videos, a full video-tape and sell the tape.” Make a movie, with four or five little videos within this movie. Sort of like Streets is Watching, and sell it like that. Because I’m known for my visuals, so let’s sell a separate video tape. “No, that’ll never work! You can never do that.” And that kinda just hardened me as an artist because everywhere that I turned, everything that I tried to do and every ground that I tried to break, was always a constant battle.

And I think the last straw was when groups like Naughty By Nature… You know, in the 90’s, when groups got grimier, and the label pitched it: “why don’t you start wearing Timberlands and Lumberjacks and braid your hair and come out looking like Treach.” I was like, this is the last straw; I’m not dealing with this.

So, was the posse cut on Nastee like a response to that?

That posse cut was a joke! Really. That was saying, “oh, you want a posse cut? Here we go.” We were all just joking around, acting like dumbasses in the studio.

So, those are fake names in the credits, right? Because some of those names are pretty goofy… [the liner notes read: “featuring the Boys from the Group Home: KBornGodAllahNegativeXtheHoe, Gasoline Alley, CJaneRunLikeAMutha, Grand Master Flex.”]

Oh yeah, definitely!

So who was really on that song?

If it wasn’t all just me, it was one of the guys in the group. You know, I’ve stayed with the fake names in the credits. And I think that was just from my idolization of what Prince used to do. Like Prince would always put it under a fake name, so it was just one of those things.

Well, let me get into this, then… these were either some other people who you worked with, or maybe they were just fake names. Let me ask you about these names from your credits. Like MAD Scratches?

That’s me.

Oh ok. (Laughs) Well, on the last album, you had an MC named GR81?

Oh, the GR81. She was an artist outta Philly that I was trying to develop. She was dope. I was working with this AIDS awareness repertoire group that I did some appearances with and music for. And she was one of the kids in the group. Well, she wasn’t a kid, but she was one of the people in the group. I thought she was kinda hot, so I said come on this album and let’s do a duet. That’s how that one happened.

Ok, how about DJ Blah Love?

That’s me! (Laughs)

Peek-A-Boo… I think was a dancer?

He was one of our dancers, yup.

[I was going to ask about somebody billed on the 4^th album as Dave “The Leader” Locust, but I found out during the course of arranging this interview that he’s Kwamé’s manager.] And who was Nina Love? She gets a lot of credit on the third album and I think that’s even her on the cover?

Nina Love was a dancer that was in the group, but she also did a lot of background vocals, and just different party scenes and things like that.

And how about Domini the Freak?

Domini was a singer signed to John B, who was in a group called Jack Hererra. So he did a lot of the male singing vocals on the third album.

Ok, and who were The Brothers Grimm? I know you were one of them, but…

That was just our little writing crew. That was me, A-Sharp, Hurby Luvbug’s little brother Stevie-O and the other kid who was with us, C-Major. That was just our little clique that we had.

Ok, and I’ve heard – and as a matter of fact, I’ve even seen your video for D-Nice where you talk about producing most of the first album… but Hurby Luvbug and the Invincibles get full production credit on that.

Yeah…

How much did they do versus how much did you do?

That was a straight jack move. 100% jack move. That was a situation where I was 16 years old, my parents had divorce lawyers look over the contract, and it was just absolutely crazy. And so the record deal came with a production deal and a management contract. So Hurby was my manager, my producer and my publishing was signed under his production company, which is why he got the producing credit.

So, did they do any work on that album at all?

Not at all! Hurby was pretty much busy working on a Salt-N-Pepa album and my first album was pretty much done before I got the deal. So the most that Hurby would do would be like to come in the studio and say, “why don’t you rap that a little bit softer” or “I like that song! No, I don’t like that song.” And that was the gist of it.

Looking back, I understand what Hurby was doing. He was definitely letting me do my talent. And he would give some advice like on my cadence on the records. But music-wise, like actually making the music and production-wise, he didn’t have anything to do with that record.

And what about later on? Did he get more involved?

No. It was always me as far as the production goes. The only record that Hurby did was the only record I was involved with that I didn’t like! My second video, “U Gotz 2 Get Down!” He did the go-go remix that was in the video. And that was a push from the record label, ‘cause they were like, “we have your name all over these records and you have yet to do a record.” So they made him do that.

But that song, the go-go version, was never for sale or anything ['though it was included on the B-side to "The Rhythm" single]. And I hated that record. I never performed it, nothing. Because I was partial to the original. I was a very lyrical guy, pre-getting a deal. I was just very into lyrics, either telling crazy stories or just ill rhymes. And with Hurby being in that whole Kid ‘N Play, Salt-N-Pepa camp, there were things that were done to soften up the imagery that in ways ended up working, but in other ways, as a 16-17 year-old kid that was into people like Kool G Rap… sometimes it was a little bit of friction.

Yeah, I remember a friend at college (what up, Kareem!) had a tape of you freestyling on the radio, and it was a surprise in the 90’s to hear you be that lyrical after being so familiar with your image for so long.

Well, I kinda appreciated that situation. Because I never believed in showing everything that you’re about all at once. So I like to keep those little elements as like a surprise. Especially when I would do radio shows and I would ask to freestyle and spit some real stuff, and they’d be like “damn, we didn’t even know!”

Yeah, and I know you worked with Original Flavor a bit in the 90’s, who were of course on that tip.

Yeah, Original Flavor did a remix for me called “Can You Feel It?” And I requested that Ski do that remix because I just thought he was so dope, and I loved the stuff he was doing with Original Flavor. I was like, man, I’m not used to rhyming over other peoples’ records, but I would love to hear how Ski approaches it, remix-wise. And also, I felt like I always know where I’m gonna go. When I make records, I have lyrics first and then I make tracks around the lyrics. So I just wanted to get on top of another type of beat and just go in. And then, actually, Tat Money produced the title track “Incognito” on that album, so that was a good look also. ‘Cause Tat was getting heavy into production and then one day he played that beat and I was like, “oh, I need that! That’s dope.”

Oh, and speaking of Tat Money, I noticed on your second album he’s credited as DJ T.A.T., like Tat’s an acronym. Do you know what was that for?

Yeah. Terrence Allen Thomas. (Laughs) He’s gonna kill me for giving that one up. That’s ok, though. I call him Terrence on stage, so it don’t matter.

Oh, speaking of on stage, tell us about Rapmania.

Aw, Rapmania was the best! It was the best, but looking back on it, there’s certain things I wish I would’ve done different. Like, to me Rapmania was the best having all those rappers in one place at one time, but looking back at it, it felt like a circus. I went on stage with like every dancer I knew, and it was a big spectacle just to do a record like “The Rhythm.”

And the beat was different for “The Rhythm” you performed that night, right?

Yeah, and that was another thing. I wish I had performed just the regular version; but I was like, “nah, I’m gonna flip it up and do a live version” with live instruments and stuff like that.

And do you have stuff like that? That remix or the 1996 album? Is that something you could release yourself, like independently now?

Yeah! Because it wasn’t signed to any label. One thing about me, I always stayed recording. I always kept my studio with me. Like, for instance, if I’m on the road, I’m setting my hotel up like a studio. And during that time, I was just constantly recording and recording and recording. So I think when the time is right, or if the time is right, I will definitely release that untitled album, probably adjacent to something else.

Yeah, I think this is a good time, with the internet reconnecting audiences and all…

I was surprised you knew about that, because I rarely, if at all, talk about it.

What’s that album like, say compared to your others?

The album, I don’t know… it’s very lyrical. And I think it’s a very raw album. Raw as the artist Kwamé could get while still being believable. The stories are very modern. And there’s a lot of bass, and it’s engineered with the technologies that were just going around at the time. It’s the album that should’ve definitely come out. Like, if things were in place, it would’ve been a very good album.

And tell me about 4x4 Records who you did some stuff for…

No. What’s that?

Like the Justus League and Divine Beings.

Oh! Ok, you threw me off for a second. A good friend of mine named Rick Young had a group called The Justus League in Philly in the 90’s. It was a remix for a record they already had called “We Could Be Lovers.” And we may’ve did one more, but man, that was a while ago.

And Divine Beings… back to The GR81. The kid in that group, his name is Air Smooth, and he’s on a couple of Roots records. He’s actually Black Thought’s best friend. And so when I worked with the GR81, I produced a record for them, around ’93 or ’94. I was doing a lot of odds and ends production during those years – I call them the dark years.

Well, let’s get into the production stuff then. I know for a while you changed your name to K1 Mil…

Yes.

I know it’s been speculated that it was at least partially in response to the Biggie Smalls quote, and maybe lines from Ultramagnetics, etc…

No, no, no. It was never in response to anybody’s quotes. What it was… one thing about me is I’ve always been experimental type of person when it comes to music. And I’m always doing these things to prove myself. One of the things was that… people had a preconceived notion of me, walking into a building after 1995-1996. And the first thing they thought, 9 times out of 10, is “oh, he’s coming here to try to get a record deal,” or “he’s here to play beats, but he’s gonna try to rap or do whatever.” It was always something. So at that point, I was like, you know what? It’s all about labeling, it’s all about packaging. So I’m gonna change my name, and let’s see what happens?

And at that time, it wasn’t me walking in. I had a friend named Rob Lawrence who was a producer and he was one of the Hitmen for Badboy. He did “Money, Power, Respect” and several other records. It was somebody that I grew up with and he understood what I was going through as an artist and as a producer at that time. So what he did was put me in his production company and start soliciting beats under the name K1 Millionaire. And as soon as he started selling this kid named K1 Million’s tracks, the tracks caught on. Immediately. As soon as he started taking meetings, he started selling beats. So one of the first things that I got was a Mary J Blige record called “L O V E” and a LL Cool J record called “Ten Million Stars.”

So, during the Mary session, I went in, laid the beat, and I didn’t do the session with Mary, because actually I had a show as the artist Kwamé, literally down the block. So I laid the track, went and did the show, came back, and Mary’s vocals were done already. So she didn’t see me.

So did she have any idea it was you?

No, she didn’t have no clue.

So the next day, I go to the LL session. And LL comes in and sees me and says, “yo, Kwam, what are you doing here?”

“I’m doing your record.”

So he got shocked, the A&R got shocked, and everybody was like, “oh shit!” And, actually, it wasn’t just “Ten Million Stars,” it was three records they bought off of me. So, I was three records in on his album – which was the Ten album - so they couldn’t do anything about it.

So, then it really started catching on: this new kid who’s doing tracks on your album? That’s really Kwamé. And so after a while, it was just like I proved this point, but what the Hell is the point? You can’t not be who you are. And it makes no sense. Because me not saying Kwamé produced this, Kwamé did this record, is almost like saying I’m ashamed of the legacy I built as an artist. And even just based on your question, the assumption, “oh because Biggie had a line.” That’d be pretty much like saying, oh, he won. And it shouldn’t even be that, so I Just went back to Kwamé. Even though the nickname K or K1 was a name people called me even before I was an artist – I don’t even know where the name came from – it was just like: let it ride.

It’s so crazy, because even to this day… of course the industry insiders know what I do, but to a person on the street. It’s funny; I’ll go somewhere and somebody will be like, “ah, man, you were my favorite artist! Why did you quit? You coulda made some money!” And I just look at ‘em like, “yeah, thanks. It’s cool. I sell comic books now. That’s my real passion.”

Going back to what you were saying about Hurby Lovebug taking credit… was that the same deal with the Joeski Love record?

You know, I never saw the credits for the “Joe Cool” record. I think I got my credits for that.

Well, on the 12”, it reads, “Produced By Hurby Azor (Hurby Luv Bug), Kwamé and the Invincibles.”

Well, Hurby didn’t do that at all. Matter of fact, I wasn’t supposed to produce that record. But Joe asked me to produce it and I did that record in between tour dates. I came home for a day, I did the record, and then I broke out. And then I came back for a day to shoot the video and broke out. I never really lent enough personal support to that record, and I think Joe could’ve used it. And I really think I should have lent more, but that was in the middle of me running around like crazy.

Ok, and this wouldn’t’ve occurred to me before, but I guess you were the connection between him working with the Fifth Platoon, right?

No! No, I never knew that he did, but in the event that he did work with them, it’s solely something different. When I did the “Joe Cool” record, B-Flat wasn’t even in A New Beginning anymore. We weren’t even speaking at the time. So that must’ve just happened. But that’s dope. I’m glad they got to do that.

And around that time, you also did that Larry Larr record.

Yeah. We did “My Ace, My Pal, My Partner,” if I’m not mistaken. That was pretty much just my Philly crew: me, EST and Larry Larr. We used to just all hang out. I was supposed to produce on that album, but I didn’t end up being able to produce, so I did a feature.

And the same thing with Redhead Kingpin. I did a feature on his album called “Dave and Kwamé.” When I was in the 11^th grade, I moved to New Jersey, and Redhead and I became very close. And we both actually got our deals around the same time. So it was always a promise that we would do at least one record together.

How long did you live in New Jersey?

A year. If that. Because once I moved out to Jersey, that’s when I ended up getting my record contract, I moved back to Queens and started my senior year at a high school there. But the album ended up coming out and I ended up using a tutor. So I never really went to high school for my senior year.

And do you still keep up with the Philly crew?

Well, I speak to EST often, because he’s a big writer. I know he wrote “Baby Boy” for Beyonce. He wrote a lot for Scott Storch, basically. A lot of records. So we’re actually working on records for artists together, and I speak to him all the time.

And do you guys think often about coming back as artists yourselves?

I know he thinks about it! I record… I can’t help but record. My problem is that there’s so much of a stigma on old school, or what people consider “old school” hip-hop artists coming back out. I’ve always been forward. I’ve always been futuristically thinking in my work, and I just can’t put myself in that spot. I just can’t consider myself an old school rapper, because my whole aura isn’t about that. I don’t wanna come back out and automatically have to deal with that crap. It would have to be a situation where I could bypass that whole look and just come out with a new record.

Because rock guys do it all the time. Why can’t rap guys do it? And I think it’s 50% the fault of the rapper, because 9 times out of 10 when he comes back out, all he does is beef about who he was and how people don’t recognize that fact. And that turns people off. And I think the other 50% is just labels not wanting to deal with it.

I think a lot of it, too, is a lot of rappers making comebacks aren’t coming back with all the same people that made their first efforts a success. Like, you take someone who used to work with Large Professor and Paul C, then have him comeback with some kid he found on myspace doing the beats…

Exactly! Yup. I will not name names, but I heard a rapper that had great records in the 90s, and I listened to one of his records on myspace, and this rapper is stuck on autotune. I’m like, “you’re killing me.” And if you’re gonna sing on autotune, sound good. Something hot with it or something! And then have the nerve to say “we’re bringing rap back.”

Well, there is kind of a sense that the auto tune is like the vocoder equivalent from the old school.

Yeah. I’m not mad at it. But if you’re gonna use a tool, use it for the purpose of the tool. Don’t use it just to say you have the tool.

But that would be the thing if you came back… it wouldn’t be like you the MC working with some newjack producers.

Yeah, yeah. And if I did work with some other producers, it’d be like-minded individuals like Kanye, Pharrell or Will I Am. You know, those guys came from pretty much the school that I came from. So I could deal with that. I wouldn’t be rapping over a Gucci Man beat!

Well, let’s turn that around a bit and look at some of the artists you’re producing and managing… or if not managing, at least developing.

Right now the artist I’m really working with is a rapper from Far Rockaway Queens. His name is Beyond Belief. And you know, he’s doing his thing on the internet slash underground circuit, just trying to build a name before we do anything mainstream. And that’s the artist I’ve really been focusing on for the last couple years. Him and developing a boutique label called Make Noise. And what I want to achieve with Make Noise is the actual development of artists, not just signing an artist with a good single on myspace and throwing him out there, then expecting him to achieve big numbers. I think a lot of record labels lost sight of what it took to be a label. And with technology nowadays, the cheapest thing you can do is put out a label and put out some good music.

And also I think you have an R&B singer? I heard a song you had of hers on your myspace, where she’s singing over a classic dancehall beat?

Oh! Now that artist is a singer named Jade Ewen. She was signed to Sony UK, but she ended up getting dropped while I was working with her and we just kept working. But since then, there’s like an American Idol-type show out there called For the Love Of Your Country on Eurovision. And they get artists representing every country that’s participating in Europe and they do an American Idol-type competition. And she won for the United Kingdom. And by winning for the United Kingdom, she secured a record deal with Geffen.

So now she has a single that’s produced by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Diane Warren that’s like more of a Broadway-type sounding song. But she now is in Moscow and they’re doing the big-type competition. And the way they’re making it seem is that she’s slated to win the whole thing. And with that, her album comes out and a lot of the songs we worked on in between her record deals will come out on that.

And I saw on your myspace that you did a remake of “Dana Dane With Fame” with Dana Dane?

Yeah, man. Dana was celebrating the 20^th anniversary of his album and was doing some records over. I used to look up to Dana when I was a kid. I’d follow him and Rick around. So for me it was an honor to re-do one of my favorite Dana Dane records.

And do you know what became of that?

He never did anything – or the powers that be that he was working with – they never did anything with it. And we also were working on a remake of “Delancy Street,” and we never finished that. So I’ve gotta get Dana in the studio to finish that one up, because the beat is just sitting there. And then we were gonna try to work on something where him, Slick Rick and I were gonna do a song where each one did a verse of a story, but that didn’t end up happening either.

Was that project tied to a record label?

No, not at all. It was just something that we were just working. Because, you know, with the internet, man, you don’t need a record label. Just put out a good song and let it float. Like the “Dana Dane With Fame,” we put that on myspace and got a lot of good reactions off of that.

And with Beyond Belief, do you have any dates set for his stuff?

Well, he has a single that’s out there on the internet, but that’s like a year old. So we’re working on a full album, but he actually this weekend is graduating from University of Miami. So things got put on pause so he could take care of that situation. But when he comes out in the real world, we’ll start dropping these records.

And, in terms of Make Noise, how do you see distribution these days? Like, would you do CDs, all digital, or…?

I would do CDs and vinyl in limited runs. But basically everything would just be digital. I think everything should just be downloaded, or if it’s passed out like hand to hand, it should be transferred on jump drives. And you could have 3-4 gig jump drives with videos, screen art, liner notes, and the record. And behind the scenes videos. I think that’s how albums should be packaged, and that’s how I’ll be packaging my albums on Make Noise.

And do you plan to handle distribution yourself, or are you looking for a distributor?

Well, for now I’ll keep it independent, but never turning down a good deal. It has to be a situation where everything can work cohesively: the marketing, the packaging, the distribution. That is very, very important. That is more important than spending fifty thousand dollars on a name producer to make a record.

And you mentioned limited vinyl… I guess you’ve been seeing the stories about vinyl making a comeback and all?

I don’t know how or why, but I just love vinyl. Vinyl is like a piece of art. It sounds different, it’s good to look at the album cover and inside jacket and it’s just a whole different experience when you deal with vinyl. I heard on the rock side of things vinyl is making a comeback, and that’s funny because vinyl is more of a hip-hop staple. I wonder, what is that connection, between rock records and vinyl?

I think maybe that rock is more diverse in who it’s marketed to? Like there’s more rock being targeted towards adults, maybe; and rap is all being geared to young teens.

Yeah, I get you.

What do you think about putting out some limited edition, classic Kwamé stuff?

Definitely. In fact, because it was just the 20^th anniversary of the first album, I’m thinking of rereleasing that album, plus adding songs that never made the album. There’s a lot of things in the works in regards to the anniversary, and we’re trying to play it up alongside Hip Hop Honors.

Like what?

Well, without getting into the actual brand names, but there’s going to be cross-marketing between certain brands where there’s gonna be a “Back To the Old School” collection. There’s gonna be a fitted cap, varsity jacket, a sneaker that is based on the design of the first album and the old school Kwamé logo. And it’ll be packaged in a book bag. And also, I’m gonna be doing a gallery exhibit with old school footage and pictures of behind-the-scenes situations that took place in 1989, working on that first album, and also other artists and photographers showcasing their work based around that time. And there’s also gonna be performances in the gallery of me performing songs from the first album. We’re gonna do that in NY, LA, Atlanta, Miami, maybe London and Canada. They’re putting me back on the road again.

And right now, as we speak, I’m currently working on Jah Legend and Estelle – their new album. That’s the next thing to look out for.

To keep up with what he's doing today, check out his myspace, where you can also download the latest MakeNoise mixtape by Beyond Belief, which features a new song with Kwamé on the mic!