The Godfather Of Soul Meets The Godfather of Hip-Hop

I've already talked about James Brown's dalliance with rap music in the late 80s, courtesy of Full Force; but that wasn't his first hip-hop project. In 1984, he released the collaborative single "Unity" with Afrika Bambaataa. there was a music video for it and everything, but I don't think it broke out of the smaller markets too much. And to make things a little more complicated, the original 12" has six different versions of "Unity:"

Unity Part 1: The Third Coming
Unity Part 2: Because It's Coming
Unity Part 3: Nuclear Wild Style
Unity Part 4: Can You See It
Unity Part 5: The Light
Unity Part 6: World III

I've never seen anyone attempt to break down all the parts and how they're different. And they are, it's not just a fancy way to label "Radio Edit," "Instrumental," etc. Well, not mostly. There's some very distinct, different music and lyrics at play here. So I guess, once again, it falls to me. Heh

"Part 1: The Third Coming" is the one they had the video for, the one Rapmasters included in their series of cassettes; and the one most of you are probably familiar with.

The music should be very familiar. Like how I said in my last James Brown video that he was being oddly cannibalistic by sampling himself, he does that here, too. Except strictly speaking, the band is replaying the same riffs, not sampling them. And when I say band, I'm actually talking basically about The Sugarhill Band. Even though this is on Tommy Boy, it's Sugarhill's house band: Skip, Doug and Keith. And they're sort of making a medley of classic James Brown music over hip-hop drums and synths, with some extra live horns. It's all great stuff, but it's not like we're getting fresh new James Brown grooves here. We're getting James ad-libbing over his old music while Afrika throws in the occasional short rap verse.

Yeah, that's the biggest shortcoming of this record. Bambaataa's rapped before and since, but there's a reason he was basically known as the DJ and had The Soulsonic Force and other rappers be his MCs. It's really a shame he didn't get any of the Force to kick proper rap verses on here - or, hot damn, could you imagine if they brought in Melle Mel? This project would be perfect for him. But instead Bambaataa handles all the MCing here, so the raps are very basic. They're fine; there's nothing wrong with them. He doesn't say anything stupid or sound terrible, and it's a worthwhile message. But I think that's what held this the top rank of hip-hop classics. If "Unity" had a "child is born with no state of mind" level verse on here, it would be on every old school rap compilation ever. And the famous hook, "Peace! Love! Unity! And having fun" says it all. The rest of the vocals don't really impart anything more.

Pay attention to James's acapella ad-libbing on the introduction to "Part 2: Because It's Coming" and you'll hear where Steady B got his hook for "Believe Me Das Bad" from. The Beastie Boys' "Shake Your Rump" also comes from here. This is a highly sampled record, actually.

Instrumentally, "Part 2" doesn't stray too far from "Part 1," with most of the same riffs recurring in the same pattern. But lyrically, it's totally different. Now Bambaataa's rapping against nuclear war and his fears of an imminent World War 3. This one's also got a bit of James actually singing, as he and Bambaataa go back and forth singing "all throughout the land." And some other outside vocalists even get in on it as well.

"Part 3: Nuclear Wild Style," like its title suggests, is more World War 3 future world problems. This one's got more of a punk feel to it. In fact, it has more of a Time Zone feel to it, specifically. James is barely on this one. He has his acapella instrumental, and about halfway through they start bringing some of his instrumental themes back in. But I have a feeling James wasn't even in the studio for the recording of this one; we never hear his voice apart from the intro. It's got a great bassline and some funky, more modern playing on it, which is cool. But it feels like Bambaataa's getting a little carried away at this point.

"Part 4: Can You See It" brings it back to the original. James is back, the original non-nuclear lyrics are back, the original horns and music are back. So what's different about it, what makes this one special? Well, every version up to now was about three and a half minutes long. This one's nine. It's basically a a giant extended mix of "Part 1." And it has stuff from "Part 2," too, like a shorter version of the "all throughout the land" bit. "Part 1" is the version with the most life beyond this 12"; but if you ask me, this is the preferable definitive version.

"Part 5: The Light" makes you want to see what they're doing in the studio while they're recording their adlibs, because James proclaims whatever Bambaataa's doing is going to wipe out the moonwalk. This one has some - but minimal - vocals and a lot more emphasis on the horns. That's really it. The production's a little more modern (for its time), and it's a funky little production pretty much created to give the horns their time to shine. Fun, but definitely the kind of thing that could only exist on a 12" B-side.

And finally "Part 6: World III" is an acapella. Always cool to get an acapella, especially for all the young producers out there looking to make their mark with remixes; but it's disappointing that they label it as a whole sixth "Part," because it makes you expect one more full version of the song, rather than just an element floating by itself. It's not even a complete acapella, really; it's just some parts strung together. All the isolated James Brown screeches have surely made a great DJ tool for a lot of heads over the years, though; and The Jungle Brothers used a crazy Bambaataa laugh as a distinct piece of their "Sounds of the Safari" instrumental.

Overall, it's a pretty fun record, albeit more for instrumental enjoyment than lyrically. It's also important just by virtue of what it is, historically: James Brown coming together with Afrika Bambaataa to make a record together, showing musical and generational unity as much as all the other types of unity they talk about in the song. Today, if Drake switched places with Justin Beiber, I'm not sure anyone would even notice. But in 1984, this kind of thing was a big deal.

Hip-Hop United Behind Mandela

(Youtube version is here.)

Capital Letters and Dots - G.L.O.B.E. interview (Soulsonic part 2)

Is it possible there's actually more Soulsonic history to learn after my in-depth interview with Pow Wow? Certainly; and it's all here in this brand new interview with the one and only G.L.O.B.E.

Do you know we, Soulsonic Force, have a proclamation from the city of New York? We were presented this about four years ago, and there's not another artist that can get that. You know, recent artists can't get that:

"Whereas the council of the city of New York is pleased and proud to join family, friends and legions of adoring fans in honoring the pioneers of an art-form known as hip-hop on this occasion of this first annual Hip-Hop Appreciation Night. Whereas hip-hop has become one of the purest forms of artistic self-expression from its early beginnings, as a vehicle through which concerns and issues of young African Americans were articulated to its current status as a driving force in the music industry. Hip-hop has influenced and informed society on many levels and it has opened an artistic legacy of a marginalized community to greater and greater expressions of cultural significance. Afrika Bambaataa and Soulsonic Force are one of the most influential groups in hip-hop history, featuring Afriaka Bambaataa, Jazzy Jay, Mr. Biggs, G.L.O.B.E., Whiz Kid and Pow Wow. Afrika Bambaataa and Soulsonic Force transformed hip-hop music with their classic hits, 'Planet Rock' and 'Looking for the Perfect Beat,' fusing funk and hip-hop. Afrika Bambaataa is considered one of the godfathers of hip-hop for his formation of the Almighty Zulu Nation and the fusing of all elements of hip-hop: rappers, DJs, breakers and graffiti artists into cultural force. And Afrika Bambaataa and Soulsonic Force have inspired a generation of MCs and DJs through their innovative and ground-breaking contributions to hip-hop. Now, therefore, be it known that the council of the city of New York honors MC G.L.O.B.E. of the Soulsonic Force for his remarkable contributions. Signed this 25th day in June, in the year 2003."

Wow. How did that come about?

Well… recognition. Recognition from people like yourself that get the real story.

Especially when you consider that the city didn't exactly start out embracing hip-hop.

True. Well, honestly, we were so into making noise, there was no time for negativity. We just wanted to teach everybody. They say I'm a genius. I invented that MC poppin' thing; I'm the first who ever did that on "Renegades of Funk." And even on "Planet Rock," "all girls don't want to be…" UTFO bit that, but what we said was, "do what you want to, but you know you got to be…" So that genius thing? I'd rather implant my daughter… and my dog, and the rest of the world with that shit, man. I love humans; I have nothing against anyone or anything that's poppin' off right now at all. There's no hate in my heart, no regret. I'm glad that Pow Wow and I had the strength to do what we did.

Man, shit! We took what we had across the bridge to Bambaataa! On our side of town, there was Flash and Theodore and Breakout and names you never heard of but are always huge in my heart.

So what compelled you to link up with Bambaataa as opposed to someone more in your circles.

Pow Wow. I wanted to be down with the Funky Four Plus One because we all grew up together. It was really me, KK, and Keith Caesar… Rodney and Jeff came a little later on, but they were down. KK and I were in the boy scouts together. The first time he told me he could flip, I was like, "what are you talkin' about? You can't jump!" That nigga went outside with his combat boots off! We were having our boy scout meeting held in St. John's Lutheran church, and he went outside and proved that shit to me. From that point on, me and KK were the best of friends. He broke my fingers sparring in karate class - I was taking Judo; he was taking karate - we would teach each other what we knew, B-boying, all that shit.

So by the time he got to New Jersey, for Sugar Hill, they didn't know who the fuck they were fuckin' with! We were like dreams, man, like little entities that were programmed to do incredible things.

So, what happened that you weren't on the Funky Four's records and all?

Well, what happened was The Funky Four was complete. Those were KK's words exactly. Now, remember, I'm talking about someone who used to spend the night at my house, I spent the night at his house, we'd go to the gym together, he'd flip around… he was the star. G.L.O.B.E. has always been chubby, ok. But you gotta see me now. (Laughs)

So, ok, KK and I were real close. And it got to the point where my skills were retarded. So, I said, ok, I wanna be down with the Funky and he said, The Funky is complete. I was heartbroken. So Pow Wow and I were boys. And I knew Pow Wow was down with Bam and Soulsonic. I met Pow Wow through his sister, who was this woman everybody wanted to holler at her. I was like, nah, I don't even know this little girl. I was always an entity that was positive. Because if you're negative, they'll eventually get rid of you, but if you're positive, you'll be around forever. So she would see me, say hi, and I would think, this little girl is trying to holler at my ass. So one day we sat down and talked. She said, "My brother's name is Pow Wow." I said Pow Wow? I heard of him. Take me upstairs and introduce me to him.

From there, Pow Wow taught me how to dance. He showed me mad B-boy moves. Pow Wow was the best B-boy I ever seen in my life. Ask anybody: ask Crazy Legs… Wiggles is my family, he taught me, Fable taught me. I could dance my ass off, too; I just don't. So Pow Wow said, why don't you come across and be down with Soulsonic Force? That's across the bridge. That's like going to Jersey, you know? So I said, ah fuck it, I'll go.

So I went and it was Bambaataa and Biggs in the cafeteria of Bronx River Center. And at the time, he didn't mean nothing to me, you know what I'm saying? I heard about you Bam; I heard you the master of records and all of that, blah blah blah. So they asked me to spit and I spit. Ok, there were 8 MCs in Soulsonic Force at that time. When I finished spittin', there was only 3, me Pow Wow and Biggs.

And what about your name? Is it really an acronym, or is it from how you spelled it out in your verses, or…?

It depends on the moment. So it is an acronym, it has many different meanings.

Did it start out that way, though?

My initial reason for spelling it out that way was for the articles. Whatever article that came out, Billboard or whatever was poppin', I would buy it. And I wanted my name to be bigger than everybody else's on the paper, so I asked them to use capital letters and dots in between. Then the questions came: what does it mean? Shit. But it can mean: God Loves Our Black Entertainers. It could mean: Good Lookin' Out… (laughs) It depends on the time. But I like the fact how everybody started spelling their shit out, too, man. It's crazy how they bit my shit like that. That's sick, ain't it?

So, when we went down to Sugar Hill, the song we were supposed to record for Sylvia was called, "The Gift of Life." And they had me go in there, let's hear what it sound like. And I didn't know I was under a microscope; I was like 18, 17 years old. I spit this rhyme about a king and a queen. And the next thing I knew "It's Good To Be the King" came out! Ok, so we all knew, my family, Bam and all them. You went in there for a test, spit some shit, and they made records off of that. And Nate Robinson produced that one. Now, no bad talk against them. After "Pillow Talk," I have no problems with that lady.

So we went out there, our record never came out. We didn't record it, so of course that never happened. I don't know why they… I guess they didn't fuck with us because of Zulu Nation. 'Cause everybody else they fuckin' robbed! Flash, Spoonie, Funky, Sequence, Sugar Hill Gang, everybody got robbed.

Well, Pow Wow was saying you recorded a track or two that didn't come out? "Rhythm of Life…"

With Fats Comet?

Well, I think… They're usually credited as The Sugar Hill Band.

Yeah, that's Fats Comet. Make sure you put that in there: Keith, Doug, Skip… that's Fats Comet. Well, "Who You Think You're Funkin' With" was the name of one song. "What Time Is It?" That was with Keith. We did a couple of them. I knew Duke Bootee. He loved G.L.O.B.E., 'cause he knew if we ever collaborated, shit would happen. And it was like the same thing with Def Jam. I was approached my Russell and D at the Roxy, and he was like, "yo, why don't you get down? And these niggas is so and so." That's my family; I ain't goin' nowhere! So Tommy Boy gave me "Play That Beat" with Whiz, God rest his soul.

Yeah, I definitely wanted to get into your solo records… not just "Play That Beat," but like "Get Ridiculous," and "The Millions…"

That was with my dude Steve… You know about that record? That's deep. Holy cow! Oh my god, I went in on that! And there was the Two Sisters, the New Edition album, Jenny Burton on Atlantic, Nairobi…

How did that Two Sisters one come about?

Phone call from Sugarscoop to Tommy Boy. We need that bad boy on one of our joints. Yeah, have him come to the studio, cut him a check and that's it.

So you didn't know the Two Sisters at all?

Nah, but they were cute as Hell. Yo, man, we did it in an orchestrated studio! On 13th St; it was an orchestra studio. It was huge. And these two ladies were standin' there behind one microphone. What was my dude's name? He was real cool with me. Anyway, he said, yo G.L.O.B.E., scribe up some shit. I said erll I already got that, just let me get in there and spit some shit. So they let me in there… by myself, this big room, behind the mic and I spit some shit. Whew! Cuties, though…

And one I wanted to ask about specifically was "Get Ridiculous." You worked with Ralph Rolle on that…

Ralph Rolle lived in Bronx River. And I went to an outreach program, 'cause I was a little delinquent. Still graduated high school, but I wanted to do something, so I went to outreach, and he was one of the teachers. And once he found out who I was, from tearin' the fuckin' block up so many times. He lived right there, and the center was right next to his building, and our voices would bounce of those buildings like nobody's business. Ralph was cool; he was a percussionist. I don't know where he is now, but we were very close. He discovered the genius and shit; he always used to tell me how to do my thing.

But we did "Get Ridiculous," we did a song called "Crunch…" we did like three songs. But only one of them really was presented; that was on Body Rock. As far as unreleased songs… there's a slew of other things with Easy LG, the cut man. Shit that never came out, and we still got it. I own that.

Before we end this, I want to ask about what you're doing these days, or what you're planning.

Everybody has a talk: what they gonna do, what they wanna do… But when you build up an arson that is so heavy you outdo everybody else, that's what it is. That's why the United States is the greatest country in the world - 'cause we got mad arson. God forbid if we run out of ammo! (Laughs). So the music brings the money to the country.

What do you think about Rage Against the Machine?

I've never really been a fan…

Ok, well, what do you think of a band taking a hip-hop lyric and doing it over like that?

In cases like that, I'd usually rather just listen to the originals.

[Rage covered "Renegades of Funk" and made it the title cut of their 2000 album.]
Damn. Why you wanna bite me?

Well, it is a classic, though.

Yeah. Like the Black Eyed Peas, straight raping Soulsonic Force, man. They might as well just blindfold us, take us away and fucked us, as much as they been stealing our shit. That "boom, boom, boom" that's 2007 and that's "Perfect Beat"'s break. I know the whole story; I know what's going on. I'm not stupid. I'm gonna use the words someone used today. She said, you're still above ground, you're still on the ground. Period. So guys like you, doing your damn thing, put it out there. Tell the truth. Just make sure your name is on there. And if they need confirmation… huh! We don't lie. Fuck that, no lies.

Well, it has been a very incredible evening for you sir. You have spoken to somebody... wow, everybody wants to be like. Everybody. That's crazy, but it's true. (Laughs) And I want big ass capital letters and dots in between, please, sir. I mean it.

Be What You Be - Pow Wow Interview (Soulsonic part 1)

So Cheryl the Pearl, who of course I just recently spoke to, put me in touch with Pow Wow of The Mighty Zulu Nation and The Soulsonic Force. An old school legend like that really doesn't need an introduction... It's Pow Wow! Just read. There's some serious history below.

Well, I started at an early age, man, with a brother named Darryl D, bless his soul, and another brother named Eldorado Mike. Bless his soul also; they both passed on. And they took me to my very first hip-hop party; it was Kool Herc. And it just so happened that we all were from the same neighborhood in the South Bronx. I grew up on 168th St and Fulton Ave. And I don't know if you're familiar with Kool Herc's B-boys, Clark Kent and the Nigger Twins, Keith and Kevin. We were all raised up together, I mean before any hip-hop music and all that. I got into it, watching them dancing and all.

What year would that have been?

Whoa. I'm talking, like, '74, man, or '73. Eleven or twelve years old; I was a baby. And I had family that lived in Bronx Water Projects. And at that time, a lot of street gangs stayed in the Bronx. And I came from a street gang called The Black Pearls and The Saigons over on Watson Avenue. And the Black Spades had beat them up. And the guys that beat them up were from Bronx River Projects where I had family; I wound up going over there. And linking up with them guys, they were very unified. I liked the way they were operating. And then Bambaataa started DJing, and we started a B-boy group called The Zulu Kings. And basically, from there it just went from B-boying to MCing to music.

Was there a clear point where you switched from B-boying to MCing?

Oh yeah, well you know what? A lot of cats don't know this, man, but they weren't calling it B-boying. They were called Boi-oing kids. And Boi-oing kids went to B-boying, and B-boys went to break dancers; and MCing went from MCing to rapping. And we were boi-oing kids, man; that's what we were.

When it started, there were about seven of us. The Zulu Kings. And that became then the Zulu Nation, and then the mighty Zulu Nation and then the Universal Zulu Nation! But when it started, it was the gang the Black Spades. We started a group called The Organization and that became the Zulu Nation. It's a blessing. Because back in the days, like 37 years, all those crews… they don't even exist no more. But we have a worldwide following; and that's amazing to me.

So, when you hooked up with Bambaataa, did Biggs and G.L.O.B.E. come around the same time, or were they already down?

Well, Biggs was always there. Biggs was raised in Bronx River. Bigg was day 1 and I came on day 2. How G.L.O.B.E. came about was, I could teach G.L.O.B.E. how to dance; 'cause at the time, me and my friend Marcus were the baddest break dancers out in the Bronx. We were the best. And I used to teach people how to dance, like KK Rockwell from the Funky Four, even DJ Breakout. And I met G.L.O.B.E. from my younger sister. And once G.L.O.B.E. found out who he was, I took him under my wing. And one morning, we was going to school, he came to my house and said he wanted to be an MC. And he came with this rhyme, man, called "People, People" that just blew me away. So we started workin', writing stuff, by that summer. He was ready and me and G.L.O.B.E. just took it to the next level in rap, man, you know? Started doing a thing called MC poppin', that was triplets and fourfipolets and stuff like that wasn't even thinking about double-up and triple-up raps. So we started that, and we called it MC poppin'.

And then as time went on, we did a record with Paul Winley called "Zulu Nation Throwdown part 1," and it was so crazy because the drummer on the record was really a bass player. The music we had was like, to me, circus music. It wasn't it. And then the good Lord decided to bless us with "Planet Rock." That's the most sampled record in history. Every year, another two or three hits come out and I hear that beat. Kraftwerk don't know what they did!

Well, when did you guys decide that, from the Zulu Kings and all, that you three and Bambaataa were going to be The Soulsonic Force, more as a music group?

Oh well, there was a whole bunch of us. I think there was about eight of us at one time. But cats didn't want to come to practice, and only comin' to parties when they wanna come and stuff like that. Like originally Mr. Biggs was an MC, but he wasn't really into it like me and G.L.O.B.E. And my first partner, Love Kid Hutch, used to be down us. He used to be down with Busy Bee Starski. Used to be Starski and Hutch, but they broke up. But Hutch wound up going with Disco King Mario, bless his soul, and The Chuck City Crew; and after that, we came our way. The rest is history. And he left and went the way he wanted to go, instead of coming to practice like I said, like me, Biggs and G.L.O.B.E. was doing.

They cut they own selves off. I'm a team player, that's how I get down. If the team wins, then I'm gonna win. But if I think I can leave and then come back three or four days later and the format's done changed up on your ass, and you're wondering wow, what happened? Why nobody told me? Because you were not there. You gotta go to work every day, and that was our work. Me and G.L.O.B.E. sat down and ate it, breathed it, and got to the point where we ran out of fucking words to rhyme, man!

So it wound up just being us three that stuck it out. 'Cause me and G.L.O.B.E. were more in the hip-hop area than the Bronx River was. See, where we came from, we were hip-hop, with The L Brothers, DJ Smokey and the Smokeatron, he was from Grand Avenue. And a lot of guys, they don't take about him. I'll get back to what we were saying, but DJ Smokey, and his brother Roscoe and the Smokeatron, they were the baddest motherfuckers out at the time, man. I mean, Flash couldn't touch them, Kool Herc couldn't touch them. Nobody was touchin' Smokey. And a lot of cats will not speak on him, which they should, because he is also a pioneer of hip-hop music.

And what happened to him?

I heard he moved out of state. I heard he moved before hip-hop music turned big. I guess he cut it loose and went about his life, but DJ Smokey and his brother Roscoe, let me tell you, they threw the baddest parties. You wanted to see some guys that could dance? Man, it was a show! There's a movie theatre we had over on 174th St in the Bronx River called The Dover movie theatre that had a place you could give parties - it's a church now - but he made that spot very popular. He used to throw block parties mostly on Grand Avenue. And this guy here, I wanna let the world know about him; he definitely deserves his props, man, because he was there in the beginning. And a lot of guys don't that brother his recognition, which is sad; and I'ma give it to him every time all the time.

But as far as Bronx River, Bambaataa, he was the man. Because back then I went to every DJ you could view; I was at every party. Even Grandmaster Caz, who was a DJ called Casanova Fly… his first hop-hop was a place called The Eightball Room over on University Avenue. That's how much I'm into hip-hop; I am hip-hop. If there was a party, I was there, trust me.

A lot of DJs, like Hollywood or even Flash... you'd know what they were playing. Like ok, now it's "Got To Be Real," next it'll be "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now." And those are great, but everything I've heard from Bambaataa, it seemed like he was always playing different stuff, and you never knew what he'd pull out next.

A lot of guys, when they called themselves DJs, were trying to be mostly like Frankie Crocker, that disco shit. And Kool Herc, he played beats, he was the man that took it to the streets. But to me, a sure enough hip-hop DJ was Bambaataa. When he showed up, it was magic. And when you were a B-boy you'd hear all these break beats coming at you like, "oh shit; what is this? What is that?" I consider him to be the real first, stone cold hip-hop DJ. He played a little bit of disco, but the man kept it funky. Man, anybody at any age… I mean, parties we threw, sometimes peoples' mothers would come. And your uncles would come, your aunts. He would please everybody and everybody had a good time. And a lot of DJs cannot do that, no way. I've seen them" it's either this, or it's that. Bambaataa has it all. He is the master of records. Like Bambaataa was the first to play The Flaming Emeralds, things like that these cats were not up on. But believe me, Bambaataa has a stash that is so awesome, these guys heads' would spin!

As a matter of fact, last summer, Soulsonic Force… every year, every Wednesday and Thursday they give shows in the park here. And we finally got our chance to go up in there. Soulsonic went one day, then Bambaataa, Jazzy Jay and Red Alert went the next week. Man, listen. Bambaataa rocked that park so hard with not one MC! He didn't need none. The music did all that man's talking. The trees fell; he brought the park down. That man is music. If you take music away from Bambaataa, that's like taking somebody's eyes out their skull and asking them to cross a busy highway. Soulsonic has never done a show where we didn't bring the house down; that's just automatic.

Speaking of your shows, one thing I wanted to ask about was your costumes. One thing you were also known for was having those wild costumes; when did you start bringing them into your shows?

Well, Afrika Bambaataa was always into Parliament Funkadelic. We liked the way they did their shit, because everybody put their own image. We didn't want to be like Flash, the Funky Four and everybody else. That's why you notice there's a Furious Five, the Crash Crew, the Saigon Crew… everybody was this Crew or this Number. We decided to be different, like we always are. 'Cause in Bronx River, we got our own shit goin' on. And we came up with the name Soulsonic Force, and we became Mr. Biggs, Pow Wow and G.L.OB.E.; and we wanted to identify our own selves. That's why everybody had their costumes - G.L.O.B.E. represented the map; he had a costume with all these colors. I was Pow Wow the Indian, and Mr. Biggs was a warrior and Bambaataa wanted to be a barbarian. Everybody had their own thing, and we didn't want to dress like everybody else in leather suits or dressed like The Temptations. We weren't doing songs like that, with little commercial jingles. We was just flowin'.

Put it like this: there's a trend setter and a master of the trend. And we would rather be the trend setters. We used to be wild. We used to paint up, awesome shit, just having fun, being ourselves.

Well, yeah, I think that's the problem a lot of old school MCs run into when they make comebacks… They started out trendsetters, coming up with new things and being unique. But then when they comeback, suddenly they're dressing like the kids, getting whatever guest producers they think are hot today and wind up chasing the trends.

There you go. That's the key to it right there, brother. That's the fuckin' key; you opened Pandora's Box, man. That's the key to it, John: come out and be your fuckin' self. Be like when you was hungry in your fuckin' house, sittin' at your kitchen table, in your bedroom, or while you're on the toilet takin' a shit, thinkin' about what the fuck I'ma say at this party Friday that's not gonna sound like Melle Mel or Kidd Creole or Rahiem or KK Rockwell or nobody. I gotta sound like Pow Wow; I gotta do Pow Wow. And that's what I liked about us: we weren't trying to follow no image or be like nobody.

So it seems like, maybe because of that, it took Soulsonic a little longer to find a regular label home than a lot of other groups who settled into one right away. Like you went from Winley and eventually to Tommy Boy… I think you guys went to Sugar Hill, though you didn't actually wind up signing with them?

Well, the cut we did with Sugar Hill Records, I believe to this day would kick ass, man. It was called "The Rhythm of Life." It never jumped off; it never happened. We gave a party at Audubon Ball Room for us and Grandmaster Flash; but they didn't come. But Tommy Boy was there, and me and G.L.O.B.E. and Jazzy Jay did our thing. And they wanted to holler at us, man… and history was made.

Was that song you did for Sugar Hill with the Sugar Hill Band as well?

Exactly. Oh, they was bad, man, they was funky. We did a cut called "Who Do You Think You're Funkin' With" with Melle Mel that they did the music for, and another one called "What Time Is It?" We had Busy Bee Starski, Little Rodney C, Melle Mel, Soulsonic and my nephew Lamont. It was like a freestyle kinda thing; and Skip, Doug and Keith were bad, man. They're some bad motherfuckers!

Do you have that unreleased recording, "The Rhythm of Life?" Like could you still release that?

Oh, you know what? I doubt it because Sylvia Robinson I guess would own the music rights to it, and we would have to go and get permission and the whole scenario. But that was a bad motherfucker, man; that was a bad record. I was blessed to meet Ms Robinson through Cheryl the Pearl, and she sure looked like a cool lady to me. I mean socially… business-wise, I don't know! She pulled some numbers on some; and we didn't go with her, thank god! But as a human being, she's a sweet lady to me.

Was Tommy Boy better about that? Were they more on the level?

Hell no! They were all fucking crooks. Tommy Boy, Arthur Baker, John Robie, they were all fucking crooks! We're getting at them right now for that back money. They were all crooks. But at the end of the day, God gets the last word. So don't deal with me, deal with the man.

But you still did a record for them with G.L.O.B.E. called "Celebrate! (Everybody)."

Yeah, we did two. We did one called "You Made a Mistake; You Didn't Let Us In," and "Celebrate." And I was kinda pissed off with "Celebrate" because the first track we had for that was so hard! And they switched it. I was like, oh man, y'all done fucked the music up. Just leave well enough alone! I did not like the music for "Celebrate." "You Made a Mistake?" Eh, that was alright. That was just something we were in there fucking around with and they wound up keeping it.

And G.L.O.B.E. did a couple other records… G.L.O.B.E. is the man; I'll put him up against anybody. You get who you wanna get! Put them both up on that stage side by side, and he won't just beat them, he will annihilate them! He's a bad man with that mic, trust me. I'm not sayin' that 'cause he's my brother. Even if I didn't know him, I'd be saying the same thing. The boy is awesome; he IS the mic. G.L.O.B.E. is the mic.

I'd love to hear that original version of "Celebrate" some day.

Well, hopefully. Because I have a collection, man. I collect everything. I got some fly ass tapes and CDs that guys would kill for. But I'm gonna wait 'till I'm more on top of my shit, and then I'm gonna release some serious shit on cats, man. I got shit from before there was even records, but when you hear this shit you'll be like, oh man, these guys were having a ball! That type of thing… everybody was putting it down, man. I thank God I got my hands on it.

Then later on, there was The Lost Generation album…

Oh here you go! I'm ready for that 'cause everybody comes at me with that one. At that time, I had got released from prison in 1989. And I was doing my homework. I happened to come across a music book one day, and saw how I didn't get paid for the music. So instead of me going back and sitting back down and not doing nothing about it. I said, I'm gonna back off of everything, take my ass to the library and start reading some books! So when I was doing that, Biggs and G.L.O.B.E. wanted to do Lost Generation and I said me, I'm not doing that. I'm not fucking with Tommy Boy no more; they owe us money. There's a bigger picture; and at the end of the day you'll see what I'm talking about. That's why I was never on that album, because I refused to sign a contract with these fucking crooks and get dicked again. And that's what happened; they got fucked! So I avoided all that. I'm glad I didn't go that route. I'm glad I did what I did and learned what I learned; not just for me, but for the group also. And they're very appreciative of it, too.

And one album I wanted to ask you about, you probably don't get a lot of questions about: the Christmas Rappin' album by The Grand Rapmasters.

That was a project we did with Mike and Amad Henderson. That was a project they had put together. But I had done an original track on there called "Christmas To a Go-Go." Amad's brother John Henderson was dealing with public broadcasting. And they had a couple projects they wanted us to do. One was to remake the Christmas songs. And me and G.L.O.B.E. went on further and did a sex education rap about venereal diseases and stuff like that. It was for PBS; I done forgot the name of that one. I gotta do my homework on that one, because nobody ever asked me about that one. You're the first. We did the disease record because at that time the AIDS was really killin' us, you know? And then that's how the Christmas album came about.

Cheryl the Pearl told me that she was working with you now. How did that connection come about?

Little Rodney C, of the Funky Four, used to be down with this guy named DJ Steve, was the Awesome Two. That's who he used to MC with. And when he went to Sugar Hill, he introduced me to Cheryl the Pearl. See, I love to write. That's my first love; I'm a writer. I was telling him I could write songs at the time, and he told me, Pow Wow, I got the great combination for you. And that's been a relationship that's gonna last for a lifetime.

When was that?

What is this, 2010? Let's say 25 years ago. My youngest son was a baby; he's 25 now.

So this would've been after "Planet Rock" and all that, right?

Oh exactly. This was after "Planet Rock." And me and Cheryl started linking up, and we've been doing our thing since. We've got the connection now that we're ready to jump off try to put the realness back into the game. We've got some really, really hot stuff man. Cheryl, she's unique. She's got that down-home soul feel about her, and if you ever get to meet her, you will see an aura that's just like Heaven sent, man. She's an angel.

So tell us about some of the music you're planning to put out together now.

Man, listen! One of my favorite ones in called "Phuck It Up." The ceilings gonna fall when they hear this one. It's so much. I got something really serious; it's called "Feel Me." That's really deep. I could tell you titles 'till titles come home! As a matter of fact, Cheryl just hit me with twenty new titles. And one of the new titles, if we pull this off, I think is gonna be as big as "Planet Rock." It'll never go nowhere. It will never die. Like they say, "Rock & Roll Is Here To Say?" It'll never die. Cheryl is just brilliant, she's just fucking brilliant.

And how are you guys doing with distribution now? Because obviously the music industry's changing…

You know what? I love it! I love it because we cut out the middle man, we cut out the distribution people, cut out the record labels. We cut all these cats out our pocket. You just come and download and send that money to our account. You know how much you're saving? You don't have to promote shit; the music promotes itself. You don't have to pay that shit no more, the middle man is done. Record companies are done. You can start your own goddamn label. The matrix is something else, and I love it! I'm happy for the change.

It's bigger than what you think, man. We're taking it home. These are some songs you can relate to. If you got a heart, some soul and some fucking morals, you can relate. And everybody I know has at least one of the three, so we're good. Taking it back to basics, that's it. Not talking about, "I fucked your girl, I got the glock and it's like that," blah blah blah. Get the fuck out of here! Them niggers don't have the slightest idea what it's like when a bullet comes so close, you feel the heat of the motherfucker. They don't know about that. And if they did know about it, they wouldn't recommend it. We have some hardcore artists, too; don't get me wrong. But for me speaking personally, I'm not going that route. You know what Kool & the Gang said? "Music is the message I sing with universal love for one and all." That sums it up right there for me; that's what it's about. So here we come again, rollin' down the mountainside like a ball of fuckin' thunder, man.

So listen, I wanna put a shout out when you put this out there[I did my best with these names! Apologies in advance for what I'm sure are many errors and possibly a couple omissions about to follow:]. I wanna shout out the man Bambaataa, G.L.O.B.E., Mr. Bigg, Jazzy Jay, Cutman LG, Amad Henderson, my brother Sundance, and most of all to my brother Marcus, who was the A1 B-boy on the planet; nobody could touch my man, he was the best. My man KO, Ace 1 Gutta, My brother Freddy, Shaqueena, Keenan, Cody, Killer, Kay, the rest of my grandkids, the original D-Nice from The Hill Crew, matter of fact the whole Hill Crew, Westwood Projects, Washington Projects, Bronx River Projects, Capital Hill Projects, to my man Star out there in Brooklyn, Coney Island, Zulu Crew, Michelle - I love you forever, my daughter, my sister Luanda, Joanne, my nephew Anthony, Michael Glover, Danny Glover, my girl Yvette, Kabuki - may she get better, Roscoe… I'm trying to put this all up in there, because I don't hardly do these interviews like this. Cheryl the Pearl, Niecy, Leesy, Mo, Brandon, Harvey, Momma Pearl, Shirley, Carlos - bless your soul, Panther, my boy Crazy Mike, Comanche, Wanda, Simone, Cheyenne, Campy, Cool C, Crazy Phil, Outlaw, Nicky Benson, Smitty.

April 26th is the release date for Cheryl the Pearl's first two joints. She and Pow Wow were working on putting together the release party when we talked, so if you're in the NY area, look out for that announcement. Oh, and if you noticed the "Soulsonic part 1" in the title; that's right. There's a part 2 very soon to follow! ;)